This has got to get ugly: IHL vs. K-Zoo

[VDOJAQ]

Ok, It is quite obvious this jump from the IHL to the ECHL has been in the works for some time. This did not just happen since K-zoo sent the letter to the IHL saying they are leaving.

I dont see how this whole thing does not end up in court. This is a premeditated move made by people who were an active part of the IHL BOG & the commish of the IHL.

Unless there is a huge cash payoff involved, I just dont see how this is a legal move by K-zoo to the ECHL.

This is very differend than the Rockford & Q.C. moves where they left, became new organizations, and joined the AHL

[Riverdome]

Ok, It is quite obvious this jump from the IHL to the ECHL has been in the works for some time. This did not just happen since K-zoo sent the letter to the IHL saying they are leaving.

I dont see how this whole thing does not end up in court. This is a premeditated move made by people who were an active part of the IHL BOG & the commish of the IHL.

Unless there is a huge cash payoff involved, I just dont see how this is a legal move by K-zoo to the ECHL.

This is very differend than the Rockford & Q.C. moves where they left, became new organizations, and joined the AHL

Seems almost impossible to prove that things were 'in the works' previous to K-zoo leaving the I. There does seem to be a financial penalty pending per the IHL by-laws but then again for every clause in a contract there is another that can be read another way. For example, I would expect the financial penalty for leaving to be based on the IHL providing 'a competative atmosphere for all member teams' or something like that. One could argue that the league is in trouble and the IHL didn't live up to its portion of the by-laws.

[Old Jacks]

Seems almost impossible to prove that things were 'in the works' previous to K-zoo leaving the I. There does seem to be a financial penalty pending per the IHL by-laws but then again for every clause in a contract there is another that can be read another way. For example, I would expect the financial penalty for leaving to be based on the IHL providing 'a competative atmosphere for all member teams' or something like that. One could argue that the league is in trouble and the IHL didn't live up to its portion of the by-laws.

Ah the old "Who knew what? and when?" I'm sure both sides knew the realities when they made their moves. Now it's just whether they go to court or reach a settlement. Either way I don't see Kalamazoo without a hockey team for 3 years.

[fanatic]

My guess is that everything is going to be very quiet about fines, penalties, and fee's. Ultimately as a league the IHL has not done what they claimed they would in expanding into new stable markets. Sorry Dayton fans I don't view Dayton as stable until there is a steady season ticket base and you actually out draw the Port Huron and Flint in attendance. The second issue will be the 10-11 season when the Bombers are supposed to be back, what is that turf war going to look like (oh yeah this was done before and the ECHL prevailed).

The reality here is K-Zoo left for what they hope is a better situation, only time will tell if it is or isn't. It seems that Elimira has done well for itself after leaving the CoHL/UHL/IHL.

As far as who knew what when, the only people that know that for sure is K-Zoo's owner, IHL Office and the ECHL Office. I highly doubt that this was a spur of the moment decision to leave. It would be insane to leave the IHL without have planning A locked up, seems to me that the league basically said to K-Zoo we don't want you go ahead and take your puck and play elsewhere.

[Steve65497]

If i was the IHL…the last thing i would want would be this to go court. Alot of the IHL’s dirty laundry could be made public…it would be very easy to find that the IHL was in breech of contract if just one team violated the leagues bylaws and it went unpunished. (im sure it is somewhere in these bylaws that teams have to pay players on time, provide housing for players, and carry workmans comp insurance)

[komethckygirl4]

Wonder if this was in the works BEFORE the Wings were eliminated in the playoffs? Or if this started after they got eliminated....?

[joe_hockeyman]

i agree w/ what you said. the IHL (Frankes) should be careful how they pursue this issue. if the future is like the past, these 2 teams will once again end up in the same league.

CONGRATS TO THE KALAMAZOO FANS FOR GETTING A TEAM IN THE ECHL!!!!!!!!

cannot wait to make the trip up to see some future NHLers!!!!!!!!!!!!

[brokenglass]

i agree w/ what you said. the IHL (Frankes) should be careful how they pursue this issue. if the future is like the past, these 2 teams will once again end up in the same league.

CONGRATS TO THE KALAMAZOO FANS FOR GETTING A TEAM IN THE ECHL!!!!!!!!

cannot wait to make the trip up to see some future NHLers!!!!!!!!!!!!
So you're gonna go right through to Grand Rapids?

[skorka32]

So you're gonna go right through to Grand Rapids?

Agreed. There doesn't appear to be as much of the future NHLer stuff in the ECHL as there is in the AHL. Especially if Kzoo goes with no affiliation. The guys that go from the ECHL to the AHL to the NHL are significantly less than guys who go right to the A for seasoning.

[J]

Agreed. There doesn't appear to be as much of the future NHLer stuff in the ECHL as there is in the AHL. Especially if Kzoo goes with no affiliation. The guys that go from the ECHL to the AHL to the NHL are significantly less than guys who go right to the A for seasoning.

There is a fairly healthy list (http://echl.com/alumni/) of players that played in the ECHL then went on the NHL. You're right, though, it is no where near the percentage of players from the AHL that went to the NHL. I think it's somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% of current NHL'ers that played in the AHL at some point. From that list on the ECHL site, I'd guess maybe 3 or 4 percent, if that.

[jackalsfan1]

If i was the IHL…the last thing i would want would be this to go court. Alot of the IHL’s dirty laundry could be made public…it would be very easy to find that the IHL was in breech of contract if just one team violated the leagues bylaws and it went unpunished. (im sure it is somewhere in these bylaws that teams have to pay players on time, provide housing for players, and carry workmans comp insurance)

How about the little white envelopes angle that Danbury got in trouble for along with their laundry list of other things. Time to just move on and enough sour grapes.

[jackalsfan1]

Agreed. There doesn't appear to be as much of the future NHLer stuff in the ECHL as there is in the AHL. Especially if Kzoo goes with no affiliation. The guys that go from the ECHL to the AHL to the NHL are significantly less than guys who go right to the A for seasoning.

Our first year our starting goalie ends up in the NHL and one of our D men had 8 games with Carolina this year. We never got a sniff of and up and comer like that in the U.

[Rocky]

No doubt, since there no longer is a U.

I'll stay out of the pissing contest and just wish all teams good luck. Their fans deserve it.

[Hans]

Ok, It is quite obvious this jump from the IHL to the ECHL has been in the works for some time. This did not just happen since K-zoo sent the letter to the IHL saying they are leaving.

I dont see how this whole thing does not end up in court. This is a premeditated move made by people who were an active part of the IHL BOG & the commish of the IHL.

Unless there is a huge cash payoff involved, I just dont see how this is a legal move by K-zoo to the ECHL.

This is very differend than the Rockford & Q.C. moves where they left, became new organizations, and joined the AHL
How is it "any of our business" whether this jump to the ECHL has been in the works for some time, or just managed to come together in the time frame between the departure from the IHL until now?

You know, according to the standards you set out in another thread...

[jackalsfan1]

No doubt, since there no longer is a U.

I'll stay out of the pissing contest and just wish all teams good luck. Their fans deserve it.

Zebras can't change their stripes.

[pioneer98]

Did Kzoo talk to the ECHL before officially leaving the IHL? That's an excellent question. I'll add it to my list that I call:

Unanswered Questions I Have About the IHL but Really Shouldn't Since It's None of My Business Anyway

[Quacky]

Ok, It is quite obvious this jump from the IHL to the ECHL has been in the works for some time. This did not just happen since K-zoo sent the letter to the IHL saying they are leaving.

I dont see how this whole thing does not end up in court. This is a premeditated move made by people who were an active part of the IHL BOG & the commish of the IHL.

Unless there is a huge cash payoff involved, I just dont see how this is a legal move by K-zoo to the ECHL.

This is very differend than the Rockford & Q.C. moves where they left, became new organizations, and joined the AHL

Even those situations were very different. Rockford was allowed to leave and QC had to go to court to leave. (Elmira was sorta "asked" to leave....darn troublemakers!!! :grin:)

[mfosterftw]

If i was the IHL…the last thing i would want would be this to go court. Alot of the IHL’s dirty laundry could be made public…it would be very easy to find that the IHL was in breech of contract if just one team violated the leagues bylaws and it went unpunished. (im sure it is somewhere in these bylaws that teams have to pay players on time, provide housing for players, and carry workmans comp insurance)

Well I wouldn't worry about that. According to some folks around here, things like city contracts and unsealed court documents are not public information... :wacko:

[Quacky]

The reality here is K-Zoo left for what they hope is a better situation, only time will tell if it is or isn't. It seems that Elimira has done well for itself after leaving the CoHL/UHL/IHL.

Elmira didn't leave on its own. The Jackals were asked to leave and the ECHL worked with them so that they'd have a league to play in.

Elmira wasn't ever a member of the IHL. Neither was QC.

Just want to keep the facts straight.....

[VDOJAQ]

How is it "any of our business" whether this jump to the ECHL has been in the works for some time, or just managed to come together in the time frame between the departure from the IHL until now?

You know, according to the standards you set out in another thread...

You're reaching Hans!!!

I am making a personal opinion/assumption. I don't remember demanding any info from K-zoo on the matter, which is none of my business. Nor am I making any personal decision that have monetary influences. I dont live in Michigan, I dont buy K-zoo tickets, I dont even have a home IHL or ECHL team. Wish I did. Got a real nice arena sitting with 1, maybe 2 tenants. However, I am free to speculate.

I think anyone with an IQ above 77.183 could deduce the same opinions about K-zoo leaving the IHL and joining the ECHL given the timelines that have been in motion. Now if your opinion is that this did all happen in an 8 day time frame, start to finish, then I have a 1979 Ford Pinto in excellent condition I would like to sell you.

I actually speculated that they were going to the AHL, swing and a miss!

[pioneer98]

You're reaching Hans!!!

I am making a personal opinion/assumption. I don't remember demanding any info from K-zoo on the matter, which is none of my business.

Oh, so if I had just called all the stuff in the other thread my "opinion", then it would have been OK? In that case....oh, never mind.

FYI - I wasn't demanding info, I was pointing out how many unanswered questions there are about the IHL, at least in the public sphere and not behind closed doors. Who Kzoo spoke to and when is yet another unanswered question. The answer may never come to light, no matter how "obvious" it may seem to you in hindsight. Unless you have a source it is speculation. Welcome to the lurch.

[VDOJAQ]

Oh, so if I had just called all the stuff in the other thread my "opinion", then it would have been OK? In that case....oh, never mind.

FYI - I wasn't demanding info, I was pointing out how many unanswered questions there are about the IHL, at least in the public sphere and not behind closed doors. Who Kzoo spoke to and when is yet another unanswered question. The answer may never come to light, no matter how "obvious" it may seem to you in hindsight. Unless you have a source it is speculation. Welcome to the lurch.

Um, I am pretty sure I said I was speculating.

[Hans]

My point is that your speculation seems to be "just fine" in your case, especially when you state it as "it is obvious"... but that you (and MANY others) did not (and still do on) extend the same courtesy to others who have had speculations and theories about situations within the IHL. And, as is clear above, don't see this as a double standard.

I "speculate" that the difference in this double standard is whether or not one's opinion and speculation are in line with the public line wished to be expressed and towed by the Fort Wayne owners, and whoever are aligned with them at any given moment.

[VDOJAQ]

My point is that your speculation seems to be "just fine" in your case, especially when you state it as "it is obvious"... but that you (and MANY others) did not (and still do on) extend the same courtesy to others who have had speculations and theories about situations within the IHL. And, as is clear above, don't see this as a double standard.

I "speculate" that the difference in this double standard is whether or not one's opinion and speculation are in line with the public line wished to be expressed and towed by the Fort Wayne owners, and whoever are aligned with them at any given moment.

Hans, where is there a double standard? I dont get where you are standing on this. I made the point that it is not fair to make decisions based on demands that are not possible. It is not fair to say "I am not going to buy tickets for a particular team if this owner does not come clean on where he is getting his money from" Nor would it be fair for me to say "Unless K-zoo tells me if they were in negotiations with the ECHL previous to the past 8 days, then I will never watch a game where they are involved again!" That is just as unfair. Those are unjust levels of awareness that are just not privy to the casual fan. If I want to speculate that K-zoo was in negotiations with the ECHL, and it was done unfairly to the IHL(also, my opinion) and say I am not bothering watching K-zoo anymore, then that is my perogotive. That is not what I am doing, but where is the double standard that you speak of?

[bcmom]

Question to ponder. Doesn't the owner of a business have the right to look into things that he or she will think better their business? And technically isn't a hockey team a business?

[Hans]

Hans, where is there a double standard? I dont get where you are standing on this. I made the point that it is not fair to make decisions based on demands that are not possible. It is not fair to say "I am not going to buy tickets for a particular team if this owner does not come clean on where he is getting his money from" Nor would it be fair for me to say "Unless K-zoo tells me if they were in negotiations with the ECHL previous to the past 8 days, then I will never watch a game where they are involved again!" That is just as unfair. Those are unjust levels of awareness that are just not privy to the casual fan. If I want to speculate that K-zoo was in negotiations with the ECHL, and it was done unfairly to the IHL(also, my opinion) and say I am not bothering watching K-zoo anymore, then that is my perogotive. That is not what I am doing, but where is the double standard that you speak of?

You want to speculate that K-zoo was in negotiations with the ECHL, and you see nothing wrong with that.

However, when anyone else "speculates" that the Dayton owners aren't the full capital behind the Gems, they're unreasonable.

When anyone else "speculates" that Leighton's group isn't the full capital behind the PT, they're unreasonable.

These are only a couple of examples of the double standard.

If that doesn't help you, then you've got a self-protecting perspective bubble going on that I can't help you out of.

[Nikola_Tesla]

Question to ponder. Doesn't the owner of a business have the right to look into things that he or she will think better their business? And technically isn't a hockey team a business?

Yes and yes. From where I sit, the only question is if -- because of the K-wings voluntary withdrawal from the IHL, are there penalties incurred by Kalamazoo due to this action? If there are, fine; pay them and go on with planning for your first year in the ECHL. Anything less than abiding by the rules of an organization which you voluntarily joined, then that's where my perception of this changes significantly.

[bcmom]

I would think that whatever fines and or fee were assessed to The K Wings, Mr. Johnston would be more than happy to pay them. JMO.

[Fury32Bouchard]

Kalamazoo is out Dayton is in were back to six, hopefully getting 1-2 more, Who cares about K-Zoo there gone, lets look forward to next season!

[MsRedWingFan]

If i was the IHL…the last thing i would want would be this to go court. Alot of the IHL’s dirty laundry could be made public…it would be very easy to find that the IHL was in breech of contract if just one team violated the leagues bylaws and it went unpunished.

exactly!! and with Pickard being the commisioner for awhile I'm sure he knew every little thing that went on.

[VDOJAQ]

You want to speculate that K-zoo was in negotiations with the ECHL, and you see nothing wrong with that.

However, when anyone else "speculates" that the Dayton owners aren't the full capital behind the Gems, they're unreasonable.

When anyone else "speculates" that Leighton's group isn't the full capital behind the PT, they're unreasonable.

These are only a couple of examples of the double standard.

If that doesn't help you, then you've got a self-protecting perspective bubble going on that I can't help you out of.

Ok then, lets make this very simple.

You have speculations/opinions made on available information vs. demanding information in order to form an opinion and/or speculation. The available information is there for anyone to use. Non-available information is the proprietary rights of any given ownership or group. As a fan, message boarder, ticket buyer, whatever, that is private information.

Again, where is the double standard? I see a huge difference. If that is incomprehensible to you, you may want to reconsider your aptitude level of journalism.

Hans, your digging a hole that you cannot get out of, your arguments dont hold water. Enough already, I never have had a bone to pick with you , nor do I want to. I am not going to continue this any further.

I am sure you will post some sort of rebuttle, I would expect no less of you.

[mfrerkes]

I would think that whatever fines and or fee were assessed to The K Wings, Mr. Johnston would be more than happy to pay them. JMO.
It's not like he doesn't have the cash on hand to cover the fines, either.

Hell...Johnston could buy the entire IHL outright and sell it on eBay if he so desired.

[pioneer98]

You have speculations/opinions made on available information vs. demanding information in order to form an opinion and/or speculation. The available information is there for anyone to use. Non-available information is the proprietary rights of any given ownership or group. As a fan, message boarder, ticket buyer, whatever, that is private information.

You're right. It's simple. When and who Kzoo spoke to about the ECHL is non-available private information and is their right to keep. Unless of course it comes out in court.

You are saying it is OK for you to speculate about Kzoo's private information, but no one else is free to speculate about the other oddball things going on in this league.

And by the way, I'm not speculating, I'd just like these questions put to bed before QC or anyone in this area sponsors this league here.

[wingnut]

It's not like he doesn't have the cash on hand to cover the fines, either.

Hell...Johnston could buy the entire IHL outright and sell it on eBay if he so desired.

he should buy it and throw it in the garbage

[VDOJAQ]

You're right. It's simple. When and who Kzoo spoke to about the ECHL is non-available private information and is their right to keep. Unless of course it comes out in court.

You are saying it is OK for you to speculate about Kzoo's private information, but no one else is free to speculate about the other oddball things going on in this league.

And by the way, I'm not speculating, I'd just like these questions put to bed before QC or anyone in this area sponsors this league here.

Could you please show me an example of what you are speaking of from any of my posts? I dont think I ever said it was wrong for anyone to speculate.

I think I have been very clear that my whole point of contention was that we are not privy to proprietory information, specifically ownership funding. I NEVER said speculating on available public information was wrong by anyone. I said it was wrong to demand information that we, as fans, are not privy to.

Maybe I am just crazy? But please, show me an example.

[jacksfan]

I think we have a lot of bitter people commenting on this topic. To me a lawsuit would just be more trouble. Let it go, its over. I have a lot of faith in this league, and one team leaving won't change my opinion. K-Zoo was a good market, but this is a business and K-Zoo chose to take their buisiness to another league. The fans are excited and they should be, but only time will tell. I don't think its a big deal even if they were talking to the ECHL before they announced they were leaving the "I". I compare this to leaving your job without giving a two weeks notice. Some people do and some people don't. In K-Zoo's case you still should never burn bridges because you never know.

[VDOJAQ]

I think we have a lot of bitter people commenting on this topic. To me a lawsuit would just be more trouble. Let it go, its over. I have a lot of faith in this league, and one team leaving won't change my opinion. K-Zoo was a good market, but this is a business and K-Zoo chose to take their buisiness to another league. The fans are excited and they should be, but only time will tell. I don't think its a big deal even if they were talking to the ECHL before they announced they were leaving the "I". I compare this to leaving your job without giving a two weeks notice. Some people do and some people don't. In K-Zoo's case you still should never burn bridges because you never know.

Yes, good analogy.

However, what if that employee walked off the job and there was a contract in place for the work to be done by said employee?

[fanatic]

Yes, good analogy.

However, what if that employee walked off the job and there was a contract in place for the work to be done by said employee?

The last time I looked contracts are broken by both sides in many cases. Speaking from personal experience I signed a 2 year contract to work for a company and had them terminate me after 6 months. Their out was the position I was contracted for was eliminated therefore the contract is void. Kalamazoo leaving the IHL yes they were contracted to play , however I am sure there were exit clauses for teams to leave (obviously paying fees) and exit clauses for the league to force teams out (failure to pay league dues etc.)

The best thing to do now is just walk away , The IHL will collect it's fines for K-Zoo leaving, the last thing they need is a law suit that would air all dirty laundry.

[Lucher]

Yes, good analogy.

However, what if that employee walked off the job and there was a contract in place for the work to be done by said employee?

Not sure I quite buy that anaolgy. In my way of thinking, the employee who walked out simply does not get paid and losses his job.

[Hans]

Ok then, lets make this very simple.

You have speculations/opinions made on available information vs. demanding information in order to form an opinion and/or speculation.
I know you said you're not going to continue this, so I'll live down to your expectations and post one more rebuttal, on the off-chance it helps you see the point.

You're comparing apples and oranges with your counter. In other threads, I stuck up for the right to ask for information in order for a fan to determine a course of action (i.e., buying season tickets or not). That is NOT what you are saying you were objecting to -- you are saying that people were demanding information in order to form an opinion or speculate... which is patently false.

People were speculating many things about the finances of teams in the IHL -- the only "demands" were from pro-Frankes supporters demanding that the speculators give proof for their speculations. That is separate from the speculators saying "I would like to know if my speculation is true" -- which you replied to by saying "it's none of your business".

You're making speculations ("Kzoo was talking with the ECHL") based on publicly available information (the timeline). You don't think it should be deleted or moved to the rumors board (I assume).

You, along with other people, objected to other posters speculating ("The Dayton owners aren't the only money behind the Gems.") based on publicly available information (their ownership of a few pizza places, and other emerging information). People have demanded that THIS item of speculation be deleted or moved to the rumors board.

THIS is the double standard. But, I respect your right to not continue the thread. I hope, however, that even if you don't acknowledge it, that the double standard exists, not just with you, but with great frequency on this board.

[VDOJAQ]

Hey Mods, I am not sure as to why this is moved to the rumors board. This is not a rumor at all, nor is it a fact. This was purely an opinion that I put up for discussion in the IHL message board. I mean , Intotheboards is a hockey discussion community , right?

Do me a favor, just delete the whole thread. I cant stop laughing at how ridiculous the gestapo moderation has gone.

[fanatic]

Hey Mods, I am not sure as to why this is moved to the rumors board. This is not a rumor at all, nor is it a fact. This was purely an opinion that I put up for discussion in the IHL message board. I mean , Intotheboards is a hockey discussion community , right?

Do me a favor, just delete the whole thread. I cant stop laughing at how ridiculous the gestapo moderation has gone.

Thanks for making my day "Gestapo Moderation" that made me laugh.

[davyd83]

Thanks for making my day "Gestapo Moderation" that made me laugh.

Just remember, even if you saw it yourself, witnessed it and heard it with your own eyes and ears, unless there was a member of an accredied media source, or a random blogger present to report it, it never happened.

[VDOJAQ]

Just remember, even if you saw it yourself, witnessed it and heard it with your own eyes and ears, unless there was a member of an accredied media source, or a random blogger present to report it, it never happened.

I just dont get what qualifies this thread as a rumor. This was a thought for discussion.

Much like "Is this the end of the UHL-Cohl-IHL" thread.

[Demon Candy]

I just dont get what qualifies this thread as a rumor. This was a thought for discussion.

Much like "Is this the end of the UHL-Cohl-IHL" thread.

I didn't move the thread, but I would assume it was moved because of all the speculation made in the thread. And perhaps because of the complete lack of self control most of the IHL board members have shown this week.

Even you don't like the way the board is run, you don't have to be here. ;)

[hockeyislife]

I moved it and I'm not interested in your opinions on the matter. You IHLers have no idea what the difference between opinion/speculation and out right rumor is.

[TheGreaser]

I dont think it will ever spend a day in court. It will get worked out. Thats just speculation on my part. I thought that up all by myself. I did'nt here it anywhere else or that would be a rumor. See I know the difference.

[VDOJAQ]

I moved it and I'm not interested in your opinions on the matter. You IHLers have no idea what the difference between opinion/speculation and out right rumor is.


Great!! So that I am very clear on the situation, could you please demonstrate by example where this thread fits in as a rumor?

Thank you so much!!

I want to make sure that I do have an idea, because I really don't think I was out of line asking why this was moved in the first place.

[VDOJAQ]

I dont think it will ever spend a day in court. It will get worked out. Thats just speculation on my part. I thought that up all by myself. I did'nt here it anywhere else or that would be a rumor. See I know the difference.

You know, the more I think about this, I have a thought that possibly Pickard may have something on the IHL that would keep this away from the courts. I dont have any links to provide as this is purely my opinion.

[wutsturm]

You know, the more I think about this, I have a thought that possibly Pickard may have something on the IHL that would keep this away from the courts. I dont have any links to provide as this is purely my opinion.

So any time we state our opinion, we should say that it is our opinion? That way no one will be confused? :wacko:

[VDOJAQ]

So any time we state our opinion, we should say that it is our opinion? That way no one will be confused? :wacko:

I would assume so since silence has been the rule on my question about rumors.

Thats ok because I am still under the opinion that there will be some sort of legal action before this is all over. Even if it is just filing in a court and things get settled before any hearings take place. You just cannot pick up & leave and be in a new league in 8 days. Well, unless you wanted to join the AAHA, you could probably do that in 8 hours.

[davyd83]

I moved it and I'm not interested in your opinions on the matter. You IHLers have no idea what the difference between opinion/speculation and out right rumor is.

How about defining the difference, in black and white terms.

[hockeyislife]

How about defining the difference, in black and white terms.

Seriously? You have no idea what the difference is? Wow.......

Ok, opinion is something you personally believe in reference to a given topic. It may or may not be accurate or come to fruition, but it is based on your personnal belief and values. As long as there is nothing insulting or slanderous about your opinion and it is clearly just your opinion, it is authorized in the hockey forums.

Speculation is a perception you personnaly have of what may or not not happen in a given situation based on the current facts or history of similar situations. Speculation is a different type of opinion and as long as it is not intended to insult, slander, or spread rumor, it is also authorized in the hockey forums.

Rumors, and write this down so you have it for reference, are unsubstantiated statements of fact intended to inform but are not based on any verifyable facts. Rumors usually start out with phrases such as "I heard", "I was told", "A reliable source told me", etc. Definitive statements without benefit of corroborating evidence such as a link to a news story, or press release will be considered rumor and deleted. Threads that become overrun with rumors will either be deleted completely or moved to the rumor forum.

[VDOJAQ]

Seriously? You have no idea what the difference is? Wow.......

Ok, opinion is something you personally believe in reference to a given topic. It may or may not be accurate or come to fruition, but it is based on your personnal belief and values. As long as there is nothing insulting or slanderous about your opinion and it is clearly just your opinion, it is authorized in the hockey forums.

Speculation is a perception you personnaly have of what may or not not happen in a given situation based on the current facts or history of similar situations. Speculation is a different type of opinion and as long as it is not intended to insult, slander, or spread rumor, it is also authorized in the hockey forums.

Rumors, and write this down so you have it for reference, are unsubstantiated statements of fact intended to inform but are not based on any verifyable facts. Rumors usually start out with phrases such as "I heard", "I was told", "A reliable source told me", etc. Definitive statements without benefit of corroborating evidence such as a link to a news story, or press release will be considered rumor and deleted. Threads that become overrun with rumors will either be deleted completely or moved to the rumor forum.

Thank you for clearing up the definition of a rumor.

Now, could you please demonstrate where this thread went to becoming a rumor?

Then I think all will be satisfied.

[hockeyislife]

Post #1. The thread starter.


It is quite obvious this jump from the IHL to the ECHL has been in the works for some time. This did not just happen since K-zoo sent the letter to the IHL saying they are leaving.


And the thread went down hill from there. The entire thread is thinly veiled and poorly disguised rumors.

As for your satisfaction, well come to the Litter Box for your free gift.

[VDOJAQ]

Post #1. The thread starter.



And the thread went down hill from there. The entire thread is thinly veiled and poorly disguised rumors.

As for your satisfaction, well come to the Litter Box for your free gift.

I will kindly decline your offer to the "Litter Box", I have been there. The litter box is full of moderators who like to talk bad about posters and say things they would never have the guts to say to anyones face.

[hockeyislife]

I will kindly decline your offer to the "Litter Box", I have been there. The litter box is full of moderators who like to talk bad about posters and say things they would never have the guts to say to anyones face.

:lmao: Yeah, that's what I thought you'd say.

[DrRonDerryJr]

I will kindly decline your offer to the "Litter Box", I have been there. The litter box is full of moderators who like to talk bad about posters and say things they would never have the guts to say to anyones face.

I've never had any problems saying anything to anyones face I wouldn't say on here. The problem I have is the cowards that say they are going to come and "talk" to me never show up.

[VDOJAQ]

I've never had any problems saying anything to anyones face I wouldn't say on here. The problem I have is the cowards that say they are going to come and "talk" to me never show up.

Hey, I have met you, what are they scared of?:grin:

[VDOJAQ]

:lmao: Yeah, that's what I thought you'd say.

Oh, and by the way that was an opinion!!!

[hockeyislife]

Oh, and by the way that was an opinion!!!

And we know what opinions are like.

[VDOJAQ]

And we know what opinions are like.

Alright, that one made me laugh, you win on that one.:crybaby:

[roger]

Oh, and by the way that was an opinion!!!

You're lucky that wasn't a rumor or you might have found yourself on double secret probation.

[VDOJAQ]

You're lucky that wasn't a rumor or you might have found yourself on double secret probation.

Well now wait, I have been inferred as an a'hole by the Mods, I couldn't be more pleased with the compliment!

I am one of the biggest A'hole's here, and I am proud of it!

That aint no rumor, that's a FACT!!!!!

[hockeyislife]

Well now wait, I have been inferred as an a'hole by the Mods, I couldn't be more pleased with the compliment!

I am one of the biggest A'hole's here, and I am proud of it!

That aint no rumor, that's a FACT!!!!!

You're not an a-hole, V. A dingleberry, maybe, but not an a-hole.

See, I can be nice and give compliments. :grin:

[TIO]

This thread is further proof that the demise of the IHL would be good for hockey.

[Chaulker]

That makes a lot of sense, since the majority of the people that ruin the threads are not even associated w/ the IHL. What would they do w/o that section? Maybe help the elderly, get lives, see what's outside of their parent's basement.

[davyd83]

Seriously? You have no idea what the difference is? Wow.......Ok, opinion is something you personally believe in reference to a given topic. It may or may not be accurate or come to fruition, but it is based on your personnal belief and values. As long as there is nothing insulting or slanderous about your opinion and it is clearly just your opinion, it is authorized in the hockey forums.

Speculation is a perception you personnaly have of what may or not not happen in a given situation based on the current facts or history of similar situations. Speculation is a different type of opinion and as long as it is not intended to insult, slander, or spread rumor, it is also authorized in the hockey forums.

Rumors, and write this down so you have it for reference, are unsubstantiated statements of fact intended to inform but are not based on any verifyable facts. Rumors usually start out with phrases such as "I heard", "I was told", "A reliable source told me", etc. Definitive statements without benefit of corroborating evidence such as a link to a news story, or press release will be considered rumor and deleted. Threads that become overrun with rumors will either be deleted completely or moved to the rumor forum.

I simply ask for a definition by the moderator, and you feel the need to make a smart *** retort. That's a nice, professional touch.

I simply wished for your defining because several people have apparently misinterpreted the rules. Having worked for a half dozen pro and major college teams, along with several media outlets, radio, TV and internet alike, I have a pretty good idea what is fact and what is not. I'm curious as to what your journalistic credentials you have and if your moderation is strict and consistent, or if you tend to delete things you just don't like. I just find it odd that if I have a conversation with a team official or witness an event personally, that doesn't cut it to get on the board. But if Joe Blogger posts something about it, and I link my thing to Joe's it's OK. Or if an accredited journalist publishes a statement by a "team source," that it is as good as gospel, while my conversation with the same "team source" is irrelevant. Maybe I can start a blog and link to myself.

[hockeyislife]

I simply ask for a definition by the moderator, and you feel the need to make a smart *** retort. That's a nice, professional touch.

I simply wished for your defining because several people have apparently misinterpreted the rules. Having worked for a half dozen pro and major college teams, along with several media outlets, radio, TV and internet alike, I have a pretty good idea what is fact and what is not. I'm curious as to what your journalistic credentials you have and if your moderation is strict and consistent, or if you tend to delete things you just don't like. I just find it odd that if I have a conversation with a team official or witness an event personally, that doesn't cut it to get on the board. But if Joe Blogger posts something about it, and I link my thing to Joe's it's OK. Or if an accredited journalist publishes a statement by a "team source," that it is as good as gospel, while my conversation with the same "team source" is irrelevant. Maybe I can start a blog and link to myself.

If Joe Blogger is paid by the newspaper or news source, then it's not really a blog, it's an article.

As for you, while I wouldn't know you from Adam, you say you have inside connections and inside scoop. Guess what, EVERYBODY claims to have inside connections and inside info. Truth is, most of these self proclaimed "insiders" don't know anymore than anybody else. I'm not saying you don't have connections, I'm just saying that I, nor any other mod, have no way of knowing. That's why news links or press releases are required to back up these types of statements.

You asked what my journalistic credentials are. I have none. Zero. But I've been a mod on this board for 7 years and I can smell bullcrap from a mile away. Plus, once you read the rules and you keep a very simple rule in mind that if your post starts out, "I heard", "....told me", "Rumor has it", "I'm hearing", etc., chances are, it will be deleted. All we ask is that you back up what you say with facts.

[VDOJAQ]

If Joe Blogger is paid by the newspaper or news source, then it's not really a blog, it's an article.

As for you, while I wouldn't know you from Adam, you say you have inside connections and inside scoop. Guess what, EVERYBODY claims to have inside connections and inside info. Truth is, most of these self proclaimed "insiders" don't know anymore than anybody else. I'm not saying you don't have connections, I'm just saying that I, nor any other mod, have no way of knowing. That's why news links or press releases are required to back up these types of statements.

You asked what my journalistic credentials are. I have none. Zero. But I've been a mod on this board for 7 years and I can smell bullcrap from a mile away. Plus, once you read the rules and you keep a very simple rule in mind that if your post starts out, "I heard", "....told me", "Rumor has it", "I'm hearing", etc., chances are, it will be deleted. All we ask is that you back up what you say with facts.

Then why have any discussions at all? Better yet, why even a message board? They offer box scores and game highlights anywhere.

However, going back to the original issue/question I posed, my opening post does not contain any of those above stated phrases.

[jackalsfan1]

Then why have any discussions at all? Better yet, why even a message board? They offer box scores and game highlights anywhere.

However, going back to the original issue/question I posed, my opening post does not contain any of those above stated phrases.

No but your first post sure seems to be posted like it was a fact.

[hockeyislife]

Then why have any discussions at all? Better yet, why even a message board? They offer box scores and game highlights anywhere.

However, going back to the original issue/question I posed, my opening post does not contain any of those above stated phrases.

If you don't have facts to back up what you're saying then you're not having a discussion, you're just spreading rumors.

Your first post was posted as a definitive statement of fact, which it obviously is not.

This concludes our discussion on the topic.

[VDOJAQ]

If you don't have facts to back up what you're saying then you're not having a discussion, you're just spreading rumors.

Your first post was posted as a definitive statement of fact, which it obviously is not.

This concludes our discussion on the topic.

Then, according to your statement, you will be moving about 65% of all the posts on ITB to the rumors section!!!

Your right, end of discussion, your last post says all that everyone here needs to know!

Oh, and I am still SPECULATING there will be some sort of legal action!