IHL Death Watch.......... [Archive]

Cyclones Rock

01-28-2010, 02:12 PM

Rumor has it that the IHL Board of Governors have recently had an emergency meeting in Las Vegas. Emergency meetings are never good things.

Rumors are plentiful that Muskegon has decided to abandon pro hockey and opt for the juniors (USHL) instead. An announcement should be forthcoming within about a week.

A source (who had another source:grin:) claims that QC will end up in the CHL and FTW will join the ECHL. The remainder of the teams will "merge" with the AAHL. Why anyone would want to associate with that silliness is beyond me, but that's what I've heard.

It seems to make sense. The IHL is out of markets. Peoria has re-upped in the AHL. Rockford seems secure for the time being. Des Moines is wrapped up in its legal mumbojumbo surrounding the defunct Chops. Evansville is at least a year away from a new arena and the arena is evaluating all of its hockey options. Chicago has already failed. Cincinnati would require an owner who is insane.

If Muskegon does go, then it's curtains. QC has the 7 team "out" and Flint can't even pay its discount radio announcer. The foundation was very cracked entering this season and should the Muskegon rumor materialize, then the roof is going to cave in.

The Frankes would be much better off financially in the ECHL or CHL. Supporting 2 (or 3) franchises takes its toll on the bottom line. The writing on the wall is so big that its impossible to close one's eyes to it. Even the crew in FTW can't bury their heads in the sand any longer.

I'd love to see the Gems give the ECHL a whirl at Hara under their new ownership. They've been behind the 8 ball since day one (check out my link to loser Bruner's facebook page) due to the Franke's desperation to prop up the soon-to-be defunct IHL.

MODERATORS: Mistakenly put this in General Hockey and not Rumors. Me a big stupido. Sorry.

pioneer98

01-28-2010, 02:54 PM

Whatever happens, I hope all teams have a contingent plan in place when the announcement is made, so they can announce everything all at once. If they only announce "there won't be an IHL next year", then QC and all others will be going through the same crap again - where will we be playing next year, and will we even have a team? I don't know how many more times we can go through this crap.

Also, I would not write off Chicago so easily. Now that Global Spectrum is in charge there, I have to believe they will get some kind of tenant for the Sears Centre. No sources - just a hunch of my own. They are a corporate giant. They may just have the muscle it might take to make a AA team succeed in Chicago. Maybe they will go after an NBDL team instead or something, who knows. But these guys are powerful - they were instrumental in helping convince the AHL to put a team in Abbotsford last year (they operate Abbotsford's arena, and several AHL buildings). If they can convince the AHL to put a team in Abbotsford, I would think they could convince someone to put an ECHL or CHL team in the Sears Centre.

But they'd have to get this started right now to get a team launched properly by October. So maybe the Sears Centre will be dark 1 more year before they get a winter sports team. But I think they will get one someday soon.

Primis

01-28-2010, 03:50 PM

Whatever happens, I hope all teams have a contingent plan in place when the announcement is made, so they can announce everything all at once. If they only announce "there won't be an IHL next year", then QC and all others will be going through the same crap again - where will we be playing next year, and will we even have a team? I don't know how many more times we can go through this crap.

Then why wait around? Take your team's destiny in your own hands, if you're an owner and/or GM. If things are really that uncertain, get out on your own terms.

That's what Kalamazoo did last year, despite all the flak they took for it. In the end though, it was them taking control of the team's future and destiny instead of leaving it in the hands of Fort Wayne businessmen only concerned with their own profit margins and not the long-term viability of the league.

I personally think it's unlikely anything will change, and I figure the IHL will be around next season, even if Evansville has to be admitted a season early and play in Swonder (where they'd still outdraw the Gems probably, if they stick around). The Frankes aren't giving it up though, period.

The only thing that's going to stop the Frankes form trying is that Komet attendance would have to drop off and show fans are tired of it. Then it means it's not lucrative for them any more.

But if you're Muskegon, or QC, you have to wonder if they won't strike out on their own and not just wait around for the inevitable failure and hope they can find an alternative.

silvershoes

01-28-2010, 04:06 PM

I think you're a little premature to be declaring them dead, no matter what Muskegon does.

In fact, if I were you I'd be more concerned about Muskegon. The track record for the USHL in former pro cities isn't all that good. They seem to attract more fans to their product when they don't have to fight fan expectations. So adding Muskegon is a curious choice, although if it tanks only Muskegon will pay the price so I guess the league has nothing to lose.

Muskegon is messing with 50 years of tradition and fan involvement- that won't be pretty. And I suspect if Muskegon makes an early announcement, they'll pay a price on other fronts.

As for the emergency meeting, the I is scheduled for midwinter meetings anyway, and they've always favored Vegas.

Primis

01-28-2010, 04:13 PM

I think you're a little premature to be declaring them dead, no matter what Muskegon does.

Well there's dead and then there's "dead man walking" I suppose.

Technically the AAHL isn't "dead' but I think everyone agrees that it basically is and that there's no hope for 2010-11 AAHL season.

If an IHL continues without Muskegon and includes Evansville with only 1,000 seats, Dayton drawing less than 1,000 many games, a Flint that can't even pay its own radio announcer, and a struggling Bloomington that might still wake up one morning (any morning) and not have an arena to play in any more... is that really "alive"?

pioneer98

01-28-2010, 05:42 PM

Then why wait around? Take your team's destiny in your own hands, if you're an owner and/or GM. If things are really that uncertain, get out on your own terms.

What are you talking about?

All I'm saying is that I hope that Muskegon or the IHL give places like QC, Bloomy, PoHo, etc, a little time to react and get plans in place for next year before it hits the press that the IHL won't be back (if that is what happens). "Getting out on your own terms" sounds great - it's getting in that takes a little more work. Switching leagues is not something that can be arranged ovenight.

minor life

01-28-2010, 05:48 PM

What are you talking about?

All I'm saying is that I hope that Muskegon or the IHL give places like QC, Bloomy, PoHo, etc, a little time to react and get plans in place for next year before it hits the press that the IHL won't be back (if that is what happens). "Getting out on your own terms" sounds great - it's getting in that takes a little more work. Switching leagues is not something that can be arranged ovenight.

I would be pretty sure the IHL and the teams in the league have been aware of this going on for some time and have been making plans for themselves.

silvershoes

01-28-2010, 05:56 PM

I think you're assuming a lot all the way around, as evidenced by your "IF" statement. But then you tend to do that.

The difference between our outlooks is I've been through these before and in a lot of leagues. If it's taught me anything, it's that people come up with solutions that fans can't predict. Is there really an overwhelming urge to bring in Evansville next year? You assume there is. Just like you assume QC will go to the E - but is that really an option without a dance partner? It wasn't before. The objection at the time was the distance and expense - not the attractiveness of QC. Has that changed? And by Muskegon going USHL, they just lost one potential dance partner.

By the same token, I can't help noticing all the people arguing in favor of Muskegon going to the USHL at the other place and talking it up are NOT from Muskegon. They have nothing to lose, and they're ignoring the very real sense of loss Muskegon fans feel. It's academic to them - and all it really proves in the end is they're tone-deaf.

There's nothing wrong with what-ifs, but you can get so many stacked up that any one will bring down your argument. Sometimes you just have to wait and see. And listen to the people involved, not your own preconceived notions.

Primis

01-28-2010, 08:12 PM

I think you're assuming a lot all the way around, as evidenced by your "IF" statement. But then you tend to do that...

...There's nothing wrong with what-ifs, but you can get so many stacked up that any one will bring down your argument. Sometimes you just have to wait and see. And listen to the people involved, not your own preconceived notions.

Actually, I have a lot of personal interest in seeing hockey continue in Muskegon. I really am indifferent about Flint or Port Huron, or any other markets really. But Musky's supported teams decently all along despite their very, very small market size, and I think that is noble and to be rewarded.

Wallowing for a couple years while the IHL dies, and then not having any other league to turn to would, to me, be a crime. Because honestly, if Musky sticks to the IHL, that's probably what would happen in the end... outright folding. I'd like them to control their own destiny instead, and I think this is them doing just that.

The ECHL is not an option with this ownership because they don't have the finances to do it. Otherwise I would LOVE to see Muskegon join the ECHL and be in the North with Kalamazoo, Cincy, and Toledo. Really, I would. But that's a pipedream. If new ownership were going to come in and save the day financially, they would have already done so. In fact, isn't that precisely what THIS ownership group was supposed to do and have done?

USHL though... financially it could work and there is interest there from both sides. So really, what do they have to lose? They can probably financially swing it, and keep hockey in Muskegon, so what's not to like?

And to be honest, I'd like to see a real USHL team in Michigan. The US team doesn't count because of what they are. They could have 33 fans show up per game and they'd continue. Maybe Muskegon can be the start of something that could eventually rein in maybe one or two other Michigan markets and eventually the state could have a strong junior presence to go along with strong minor pro presence. If that's what it takes to keep hockey in these financially-beat-down markets, I'm all for it.

Some people though seem so bent on protecting the IHL that they don't care who gets hurt. Like Flint fans, or Dayton fans, or Port Huron fans, or Muskegon fans...

And that's a crime too.

hockey

01-28-2010, 08:58 PM

pioneer98

01-28-2010, 09:34 PM

USHL though... financially it could work and there is interest there from both sides. So really, what do they have to lose? They can probably financially swing it, and keep hockey in Muskegon, so what's not to like?

Yep, the USHL is a great option....for everyone except your team. I honestly don't have anything against it, but you never hear anyone with a current team clamoring for the USHL. It's always a 2nd choice, unless you're a market like Dubuque where it's a step up.

I think you're assuming a lot all the way around, as evidenced by your "IF" statement. But then you tend to do that.

The difference between our outlooks is I've been through these before and in a lot of leagues. If it's taught me anything, it's that people come up with solutions that fans can't predict. Is there really an overwhelming urge to bring in Evansville next year? You assume there is. Just like you assume QC will go to the E - but is that really an option without a dance partner? It wasn't before. The objection at the time was the distance and expense - not the attractiveness of QC. Has that changed? And by Muskegon going USHL, they just lost one potential dance partner.

By the same token, I can't help noticing all the people arguing in favor of Muskegon going to the USHL at the other place and talking it up are NOT from Muskegon. They have nothing to lose, and they're ignoring the very real sense of loss Muskegon fans feel. It's academic to them - and all it really proves in the end is they're tone-deaf.

There's nothing wrong with what-ifs, but you can get so many stacked up that any one will bring down your argument. Sometimes you just have to wait and see. And listen to the people involved, not your own preconceived notions.

I'll never grasp why some people want to stay in this incarnation of the UHL/IHL. It's really gone downhill. Why wouldn't you want to be in the ECHL? Even if the hockey is totally equal, there is just so much more stability and less nonsense going on.

FWKRTJ

01-28-2010, 10:27 PM

The meeting isn't an emergency one. It's their annual mid-season meeting in Las Vegas. It's next week.

hockey

01-28-2010, 11:10 PM

I hope they sent an email to the comish about it last week so that he would have some time to plan a break from his vacation.

Cyclones Rock

01-28-2010, 11:59 PM

Johnstown, Wheeling, Port Huron, Flint, Bloomington and Dayton as the SPHL North. Drop the cap down, use younger guys. 2k in these old buildings with a smaller cap and cheaper players (no families, guys crammed into apartments).

Evansville can join too even in their tiny building.

I would think that this is the most viable long term solution for cities which may not be able to support AA hockey.

Unlike the AAHL, the SPHL is legitimate hockey and deserves the A designation. The AAHL should probably referred to as semi-pro.

pioneer98

01-29-2010, 10:04 AM

I hope they sent an email to the comish about it last week so that he would have some time to plan a break from his vacation.

:lmao:

One of these times he's going to come back from vacation and find that the league he was commissioner of has folded!

mfosterftw

01-29-2010, 11:29 AM

And to be honest, I'd like to see a real USHL team in Michigan. The US team doesn't count because of what they are. They could have 33 fans show up per game and they'd continue. Maybe Muskegon can be the start of something that could eventually rein in maybe one or two other Michigan markets and eventually the state could have a strong junior presence to go along with strong minor pro presence. If that's what it takes to keep hockey in these financially-beat-down markets, I'm all for it.

Primis, there's something really important here in what you've said, but because most people here really don't follow the youth/junior scene they are unaware of the border war between the USHL and CHL for young American talent.

The USHL, on a per-team basis basis, has as many alumni in the NHL as the CHL (WHL, OHL, and QMJHL). Yet, the CHL has for years been raiding American talent from the USHL, NTDP, and NCAA. Their scouts raid our West Coast players (and there is a lot of talent coming out of California right now) and sit outside the NTDP tryouts and console the kids who have just been cut like guys comforting the girl who's just been dumped by her boyfriend. They say "he doesn't know what he's missing... come to us, we'll get you into the NHL," when the fact is they are no better at it than the USHL. "What's the problem with this?" you may ask? The problem is that once they cross the line, they lose NCAA eligibility. Nevermind the top American talent that's gone to the OHL thanks to six-figure signing bonuses (a scandal of it's own that should really tick off Canadians), you don't even have to play a game for a CHL team, if you spend "x" days with them in training camp, you're done. The next question you may ask is "other then the NCAA issue, what difference does it make if they go to Canada?" Well, more top American talent playing in America makes ALL of hockey stronger in the USA. Juniors, NCAA, minors, NHL, and the youth system that feeds it all. Minor league fans sometimes miss the big picture, and part of that big picture is that they need the growth of the talent base to keep this game not just sustainable, but growing in the USA.

So what does Muskegon in the USHL do for American hockey? It gives Michigan talent somewhere to go that is close to home. Sure, there are 40 kids on the NTDP, but they are from all over the country. The OHL will have a more difficult time telling kids they can stay home and play for the OHL in Saginaw, Plymouth, Sarnia, or Windsor... It helps keep them here in the USA, and it will help the American game.

bingdusters

01-29-2010, 01:44 PM

Well there's dead and then there's "dead man walking" I suppose.

Technically the AAHL isn't "dead' but I think everyone agrees that it basically is and that there's no hope for 2010-11 AAHL season.

If an IHL continues without Muskegon and includes Evansville with only 1,000 seats, Dayton drawing less than 1,000 many games, a Flint that can't even pay its own radio announcer, and a struggling Bloomington that might still wake up one morning (any morning) and not have an arena to play in any more... is that really "alive"?

That's not the problem. This is:

Bloomington Total Attendance

2006-2007 143,026
2007-2008 121,012
2008-2009 112,556
2009-2010 95,332 (expected total attendance based on current pace)

Primis

01-29-2010, 01:45 PM

Primis, there's something really important here in what you've said, but because most people here really don't follow the youth/junior scene they are unaware of the border war between the USHL and CHL for young American talent.

That's why part of former NHLPA head Paul Kelly's new gig is to keep US players playing in the US and out of the clutches of the CanHL, where they lose eligibility and amateur status.

mfrerkes

02-03-2010, 01:39 AM

That's not the problem. This is:

Bloomington Total Attendance

2006-2007 143,026
2007-2008 121,012
2008-2009 112,556
2009-2010 95,332 (expected total attendance based on current pace)
I've touched on this trend in a forum populated with PT fans. It's a real sore spot for them, but the numbers don't lie. When you hemmorhage 15% of your fan base in each subsequent season (for three straight seasons) it's foolish to brush aside what that really means.

I'd love to see Bloomington in the ECHL with us and another near-by market...but the situation would still be far from ideal. Set aside the issue of Bloomington's financially-strapped arena. There's the stubborn fact that Bloomington doesn't have adequate fan support for AA hockey; especially in a more expensive league like the ECHL. Travel costs will be higher for them.

That might end up putting QC on a desolate island should Bloomington only make it one or two seasons in the ECHL.

mfrerkes

02-03-2010, 01:52 AM

A source (who had another source:grin:) claims that QC will end up in the CHL and FTW will join the ECHL. The remainder of the teams will "merge" with the AAHL. Why anyone would want to associate with that silliness is beyond me, but that's what I've heard.
QC in the CHL is a little goofy, unless we get Des Moines and some other relatively close market to come along. There are not any nearby teams in that league right now.

We'd certainly end up in the Northern Conference. Missouri (the KC area) would be our closest competition. That trip is 365 miles one way. Then the next closest teams are Mississippi (545 miles), Wichita (560 miles), and Tulsa (630 miles).

That would make our current IHL travel log look like a trip to the neighborhood convenience store. Unfortunately, the ECHL in its present configuration doesn't offer significantly better options.

Primis

02-03-2010, 09:12 AM

QC in the CHL is a little goofy, unless we get Des Moines and some other relatively close market to come along. There are not any nearby teams in that league right now.

We'd certainly end up in the Northern Conference. Missouri (the KC area) would be our closest competition. That trip is 365 miles one way. Then the next closest teams are Mississippi (545 miles), Wichita (560 miles), and Tulsa (630 miles).

That would make our current IHL travel log look like a trip to the neighborhood convenience store. Unfortunately, the ECHL in its present configuration doesn't offer significantly better options.

I guess that would depend too on what league gets in at the Sears Center, and what happens in Indy (if anything). If CHL went into the Sears Center, it would certainly help the notion of the CHL. If the ECHL went in there, same thing.

I admittedly have been trying like crazy to get a pulse on what the CHL is going to be doing or looking like this coming offseason, and I can't get any type of good read from anywhere. Most of it revolves around the notion of the western ECHL teams splitting to join the CHL possibly, which would not be far-fetched considering the grumblings I've heard then of the CHL trying hard to align itself more towards the developmental side of things. Maybe those two are connected.

Besides, the current ECHL North is not really geographically different than the current IHL, just different markets. If you can travel to Muskegon, Port Huron, and Dayton, you can travel to Kalamazoo, Toledo, and Cincy. Wheeling is a bit further then, but not much really. And yes, that's not taking into account then the possibility of some other IHL market possibly surviving a jump to the ECHL as well. If that happened, Wheeling might even be able to get out of the North and back with the Pensy/NY/NJ teams, so Wheeling might be a moot divisional point.

Johnstown, Elmira, Reading, and Trenton a few times would be a bit more a stretch, but still is quite doable. Trenton would be the bad one I suppose.

It then would basically involve a couple road trips then to hit the southern teams for the 1 or 2 games each they'd play at some point in the season and that's about it, with the current schedule configuration anyways.

mfrerkes

02-03-2010, 09:31 AM

I guess that would depend too on what league gets in at the Sears Center, and what happens in Indy (if anything). If CHL went into the Sears Center, it would certainly help the notion of the CHL. If the ECHL went in there, same thing.
I've heard the ECHL is a prime candidate for the Sears Centre. If the E gets Chicago and Bloomington, it would almost be guaranteed that QC will join the show. Obviously, nothing is set in stone with the Sears Centre...and Bloomington is struggling with their attendance. I'm not betting the farm that both of those would pan out right now.

Given what Indy is drawing with the USHL (over 3,500 per game) I would be surprised to see any changes coming to that market.

pioneer98

02-03-2010, 09:41 AM

I've heard the ECHL is a prime candidate for the Sears Centre.

Not according to our distinguished commissioner:
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100203/SPORTS/2030328/1002

Craig Drecktrah of the dormant Chicago Hounds will also be present, along with representatives from the Evansville expansion team. Hextall said he understands Drecktrah is close to signing a lease with the Sears Centre in Hoffman Estates, Ill.

“He is getting close to where he has to be in his mind to make it a viable move,” Hextall said. “I think they want him as badly as he wants the building.”

bingdusters

02-03-2010, 10:46 AM

Not according to our distinguished commissioner:
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100203/SPORTS/2030328/1002

I see we're starting the "commit" business again. I seem to recall everyone from last year committed to this year. 4 out of 6 isn't bad.

Primis

02-03-2010, 11:09 AM

I've heard the ECHL is a prime candidate for the Sears Centre. If the E gets Chicago and Bloomington, it would almost be guaranteed that QC will join the show. Obviously, nothing is set in stone with the Sears Centre...and Bloomington is struggling with their attendance. I'm not betting the farm that both of those would pan out right now.

Given what Indy is drawing with the USHL (over 3,500 per game) I would be surprised to see any changes coming to that market.

Bloomy also still has an uncertain arena future, to my knowledge. I haven't seen anything new indicating that it has started reliably turning a profit and not bleeding the city dry. That to me is the real problem there, not attendance. Support or not, a team can't continue if the only venue they have to play in closes its doors because the owners (the city) can't continue to pay the operational costs.

I've heard rumblings in the past that the AHL may look at Indy again. There have been Indy-to-the-AHL rumors for the past year or so now and with so many east coast markets looking like they're failing, whoc knows. I don't see Indy going to the ECHL or anything though. USHL and AHL may be able to coexist I suppose. I also don't know where they'd play at though...

Hans

02-03-2010, 01:58 PM

I can't honestly see the AHL as a possibility in Indy as long as the USHL owner remains married to (and in good standing with) the daughter of one of the Pacers owners... I believe that's the current situation. I also believe that the Pacers control any bookings at Conseco Field House -- which could in theory support an AHL team, but I can't see the Pacers owners agreeing to sabotage their son-in-law like that.

JMO, of course.

mfrerkes

02-03-2010, 07:51 PM

Not according to our distinguished commissioner:
http://www.news-sentinel.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20100203/SPORTS/2030328/1002
Hextall is a puppet. The Frankes write the script and he reads it.

sca317

02-03-2010, 10:45 PM

“To my knowledge, and I can't verify this, there is a USHL team coming in, and the Lumberjacks are also staying,” Hextall said. “I have not talked to the owners in the last couple of days. I don't have a confirmed answer to give you as I haven't heard from the ownership, but that's what I'm hearing on the street. To my knowledge the Muskegon team has done pretty well this year at the gate, and I think this is a very viable league to stay in.”

I know that a USHL team and AHL team didn't work well in Des Moines. I can't see how this would work for these two potential teams. I'm surprised this hasn't been commented on yet.

hockey

02-03-2010, 10:56 PM

I know that a USHL team and AHL team didn't work well in Des Moines. I can't see how this would work for these two potential teams. I'm surprised this hasn't been commented on yet.

It hasn't been commented on because its so utterly retarded of a comment by the commish that no one gives it two thoughts.

Pete

02-08-2010, 03:46 PM

The IHL played last year with six teams. If Evansville adds another 1000 seats to Swonder and comes in, the IHL could lose Flint and Musky and still be at six teams.

Why it is a foregone conclusion that even with the 7 team clause in the lease, people think QC will automatically leave the IHL if it drops to six teams? I dont think a move to the ECHL or CHL makes much financial sense for QC so why not stay?

Speedracer

02-18-2010, 06:40 PM

Johnstown, Wheeling, Port Huron, Flint, Bloomington and Dayton as the SPHL North. Drop the cap down, use younger guys. 2k in these old buildings with a smaller cap and cheaper players (no families, guys crammed into apartments).

Evansville can join too even in their tiny building.

The SPHL won't go further north than Richmond, VA. At least, that's what the commish said when the Renegades resurfaced 3 yrs ago. I'm sure that can change, but for now, I don't think the SPHL will go further north than Roanoke.

Primis

02-18-2010, 09:54 PM

The SPHL won't go further north than Richmond, VA. At least, that's what the commish said when the Renegades resurfaced 3 yrs ago. I'm sure that can change, but for now, I don't think the SPHL will go further north than Roanoke.

I don't know that they were necessarily saying it literally be SPHL, but that it be the same idea and at the same "A" level. There needs to be a northern-based "A" league, and it needs to be former "AA" markets that do it, to stop dillution at the "AA" level and improve the "A" level.

This does need to happen eventually -- at some point some of the current "AA" markets (especially the ones struggling to make ends meet) are going to have to go "A". The "AA" level can't survive this way...

Ice Dragon

02-19-2010, 03:01 PM

Cunningstunts

04-13-2010, 10:24 AM

I don't know that they were necessarily saying it literally be SPHL, but that it be the same idea and at the same "A" level. There needs to be a northern-based "A" league, and it needs to be former "AA" markets that do it, to stop dillution at the "AA" level and improve the "A" level.

This does need to happen eventually -- at some point some of the current "AA" markets (especially the ones struggling to make ends meet) are going to have to go "A". The "AA" level can't survive this way...

Although Johnstowns market is small, we've been exposed to AA calibre hockey for so long that dropping down to single A may not get the support.
Perhaps the appetite would increase after going dark for a few years.

And secondly, the rumor around here is getting stronger that after playing part of their schedule in Johnstown for the 10-11 season, the brothers Brooks are looking to move to J-town for the 11-12 season. ( Or they could be using that option as a bargaining chip against Wesbanco Arena in lease negotiations)

VDOJAQ

04-13-2010, 09:26 PM

Do you all think that the IHL is like Motel 6?...The IHL 6? Maybe after the season is over they "will leave the light on for ya!"

I firmly believe the IHL death march is on....but does the parade end now or in another year?

hawkeybawl

04-14-2010, 10:56 AM

I know that a USHL team and AHL team didn't work well in Des Moines. I can't see how this would work for these two potential teams. I'm surprised this hasn't been commented on yet.

Here's my comment:

It wasn't that a USHL and an AHL team didn't work well in Des Moines. It was an AHL team not working in Des Moines. The two teams did not fracture that market's fan base at all. The AHL team simply didn't have the muchachos to establish, then grow a sustainable fan base.

Same thing in Omaha as well.

hawkeybawl

04-14-2010, 11:03 AM

The IHL played last year with six teams. If Evansville adds another 1000 seats to Swonder and comes in, the IHL could lose Flint and Musky and still be at six teams.

Anyone here remember Jacksonville's SPHL team trying to make a go of it in a "rec rink" with approximately 2,000 seats?

Anyone at all?

IF Swonder adds 1,000 so they can join the IHL for 2010-2011 (Just to prop that league up) that will be as obvious an outwardly clear sign of desperation as there's ever been. If that happens, then what becomes of the Swonder-based IHL team IF (when) they don't get the hockey lease for the new building?

And, what happens to the AAHL when Evansville leaves for the IHL? Oh wait, that's right. No one gives a damn about the AAHL. Not even the ownership in Evansville. The sooner that "league" is buried, the better.

VDOJAQ

04-15-2010, 12:29 AM

Anyone here remember Jacksonville's SPHL team trying to make a go of it in a "rec rink" with approximately 2,000 seats?

Anyone at all?

IF Swonder adds 1,000 so they can join the IHL for 2010-2011 (Just to prop that league up) that will be as obvious an outwardly clear sign of desperation as there's ever been. If that happens, then what becomes of the Swonder-based IHL team IF (when) they don't get the hockey lease for the new building?

And, what happens to the AAHL when Evansville leaves for the IHL? Oh wait, that's right. No one gives a damn about the AAHL. Not even the ownership in Evansville. The sooner that "league" is buried, the better.

That would have been the Barracudas. I think that was the J'ville Ice Palace that only sat 800 and had some temp seating added. I think 2000 capacity is being generous.

hawkeybawl

04-15-2010, 10:30 AM

That would have been the Barracudas. I think that was the J'ville Ice Palace that only sat 800 and had some temp seating added. I think 2000 capacity is being generous.

Actually, what I was going for, was, does anyone remember what happened to them when they trieds playing minor pro hockey in a rec rink? V, you obviously do. It was nothing more than a complete disaster.

While, from pictures I've seen, Swonder is a much nicer facility than Jax Ice is. However, it's still a rec rink. And I can't think of one place where "pro" hockey, in any incarnation, has been a success in a rec rink.

I do believe that if the IHL plays next season, Evansville will be part of it and that the AAHL (again, who really gives a damn about them) will cease to exist. Or, it'll be the other way around.

Speaking of which, anyone notice now, that when there's any AAHL news, it's seemingly always out of Battle Creek, and it always offers up quotes from Ricky Williams? Whatever happened to Joe B(The local doctor who bought the team from the truck driver) and Joe K(The "I'm not involved in any way, shape or form" guy, who then mysteriously ended up as the league's executive of the year)?:shock:

Primis

04-15-2010, 11:06 AM

While, from pictures I've seen, Swonder is a much nicer facility than Jax Ice is. However, it's still a rec rink. And I can't think of one place where "pro" hockey, in any incarnation, has been a success in a rec rink.

The CHL Texas Brahmas are making a go of it in a similar sort of rink as what Swonder would probably be if they added some seating:

http://www.looklocally.com/images/media/11383/Brahmas_game-standard.jpg

http://www.hockeepuck.com/images/me/nhl/brahmas/11.jpg

They've been there since 2007 and even won a Cup there in 08-09. I think the league is *really* pushing them to get into someplace different though at this point....

jb_puckhead

04-15-2010, 11:20 AM

Actually, what I was going for, was, does anyone remember what happened to them when they trieds playing minor pro hockey in a rec rink? V, you obviously do. It was nothing more than a complete disaster.

While, from pictures I've seen, Swonder is a much nicer facility than Jax Ice is. However, it's still a rec rink. And I can't think of one place where "pro" hockey, in any incarnation, has been a success in a rec rink.

I do believe that if the IHL plays next season, Evansville will be part of it and that the AAHL (again, who really gives a damn about them) will cease to exist. Or, it'll be the other way around.

Speaking of which, anyone notice now, that when there's any AAHL news, it's seemingly always out of Battle Creek, and it always offers up quotes from Ricky Williams? Whatever happened to Joe B(The local doctor who bought the team from the truck driver) and Joe K(The "I'm not involved in any way, shape or form" guy, who then mysteriously ended up as the league's executive of the year)?:shock:

Danbury did pretty well playing in a glorified rec rink in the UHL, but of course there were some other "interests" that assisted in that success.

hawkeybawl

04-15-2010, 02:04 PM

Danbury did pretty well playing in a glorified rec rink in the UHL, but of course there were some other "interests" that assisted in that success.

And without those other "interests," the Trashers would have fared no better than any of their successors.

Rec Rinks and Play for Pay teams are like oil and water. They just don't mix.

hawkeybawl

04-15-2010, 02:15 PM

The CHL Texas Brahmas are making a go of it in a similar sort of rink as what Swonder would probably be if they added some seating.

They've been there since 2007 and even won a Cup there in 08-09. I think the league is *really* pushing them to get into someplace different though at this point....

I'll bet they're being "pushed." That's the type of rink that should house an NAHL team. Heck, it's even too small by USHL standards.

The Brahmas were 14th out of 15 teams in regular season average attendance, and are 8th out of 10 tyeams in average playoff attendance.

No matter how you spin it, that ain't good.

FWKRTJ

04-16-2010, 05:53 PM

Austin played in a rec rink and now they're in the AHL...

hawkeybawl

04-17-2010, 10:26 AM

Austin played in a rec rink and now they're in the AHL...

You're talking about two entirely different franchises.

The Austin CHL team, playing in a rec rink, went out of business.

The Austin AHL team plays in a brand new, actual arena, not a rec rink.

Two entirely different franchises, two entirely different buildings. Neither has anything to do with the other.

YOu tried making a point that simply was not valid.

bingdusters

04-21-2010, 05:01 PM

The CHL Texas Brahmas are making a go of it in a similar sort of rink as what Swonder would probably be if they added some seating:

http://www.looklocally.com/images/media/11383/Brahmas_game-standard.jpg

http://www.hockeepuck.com/images/me/nhl/brahmas/11.jpg

They've been there since 2007 and even won a Cup there in 08-09. I think the league is *really* pushing them to get into someplace different though at this point....

That place is Madison Square Garden compared to Swonder. They have chairbacks and seating on four sides. They may be able to make some minor adjustments, but seating in Swonder is limited to one side of the building.

mfosterftw

04-21-2010, 05:05 PM

That's the type of rink that should house an NAHL team.

It DID host an NAHL team, two of them in fact. The Texas Tornado were there from 1999-2003, and the Lone Star Cavalry were there in 2003-04. The Tornado moved across town to a much nicer/larger facility in Frisco, while the Cavalry were forced to move to Santa Fe the first week of the 2004-05 season when the arena went bankrupt. The arena and the Cavalry owners were one in the same, but the Cavalry really didn't have any ownership to speak of in the summer of 2004. The team was run out of my kitchen while the league found new ownership in the form of NHL head coach Andy Murray (among others).

mfosterftw

04-21-2010, 05:11 PM

That place is Madison Square Garden compared to Swonder. They have chairbacks and seating on four sides. They may be able to make some minor adjustments, but seating in Swonder is limited to one side of the building.

They never did fix the seating/aisle configuration, however, as Blue Line/NYTEX was screwed up when they built it. If you look at the aisles that come up from the ice-level entries, they don't line up with the doors on the concourse level. As a result, you have to climb over/through a couple rows to go from top to bottom. Everything needs to be shifted to the left. 20-30 volunteers and a couple of compressors with air wrenches could probably knock this off in a weekend, but they've never gotten around to it.

hawkeybawl

04-23-2010, 02:23 PM

Blue Line/NYTEX was screwed up when they built it.

Sorta like the Pelham Civic Center in suburban Birmingham, where the Alabama Slammers played in 2003-2004.

Rec rink facility with absolutely horrible sitelines.

PIMking

04-23-2010, 11:02 PM

Sorta like the Pelham Civic Center in suburban Birmingham, where the Alabama Slammers played in 2003-2004.

Rec rink facility with absolutely horrible sitelines.

Sitelines are not bad there. It's just a horrible rink. Ice sucks arena isn't any better. Plus the front row is about 20 feet from the glass.

hawkeybawl

04-25-2010, 08:04 PM

Sitelines are not bad there. It's just a horrible rink. Ice sucks arena isn't any better. Plus the front row is about 20 feet from the glass.

I saw a few games there. You are right, front row seats on the sides are a good 20 feet from the glass. In the one end that had permanent seating, front row was maybe 40-50 feet from glass. The team put folding metal chairs on painted wooden risers and tried to pass them off as something special. (Yeah, right!) Not that many were sold. And, in the permanent seating the bottom several rows were unsellable, because you simply couldn't see the ice. For that reason alone, I would disagree about sitelines not being bad.

As a rec facility, I thought is was okay. But, just okay. Of course, publically, the city is proud of their facility. I'm glad someone is.