Muskegon to the USHL

[Rich The Goalie]

It should be announced next week that this will be the last season for the Muskegon Lumberjacks of the IHL. A new owner will be bringing in a new USHL team to play in the LC Walker Arena. The current owners will continue to manage the Arena. The same owners that brought an end to Pro Hockey in Muskegon.

[Primis]

I hope Muskegon does move on, because from what I've heard the finances in Musky aren't all that rosy. I don't think they can continue in the IHL long-term, with finances the way they are, and they know that. Multiple ownership groups have been in now and nobody seems to be able to make a real go of it and have a long-term, secure financial future. So I really don't see there being any white knight owners able to swoop in and save the day either. Mayeb that has even been explored already.

If USHL hockey is what saves hockey in Muskegon, I'd hope people give it a chance. The alternative may be to have nothing at all... and I thin that'd be a shame. It also may finally give juniors a hold in Michigan that the US NTDP has not been able to offer yet.

[Hans]

It should be announced next week that this will be the last season for the Muskegon Lumberjacks of the IHL. A new owner will be bringing in a new USHL team to play in the LC Walker Arena. The current owners will continue to manage the Arena. The same owners that brought an end to Pro Hockey in Muskegon.

Don't you mean "the same owners that saved pro hockey in Muskegon for two years after Tony Lisman ran it into the ground with his ill-conceived buyout of the Bloomington Prairie Thunder"?

Also, aren't the AAHL West Michigan Blizzard supposedly playing out of LC Walker arena next season? They at least _claim_ to be professional hockey (even though from what I can tell, the organization of that league is anything BUT "professional").

[canuck steve]

Not sure if USHL, is the way to go for Muskegon,cetainly has not done as well as hoped in Youngstown and even in Des Moines with the AHL gone crowds are down.I think the IHL should be agressive and expand, Louisville.Omaha, Des Moines,Youngstown ( better attendence in the CHL) and bring back the Otters..the best time to expand is before the bounce in the economy

[hockey]

Not sure if USHL, is the way to go for Muskegon,cetainly has not done as well as hoped in Youngstown and even in Des Moines with the AHL gone crowds are down.I think the IHL should be agressive and expand, Louisville.Omaha, Des Moines,Youngstown ( better attendence in the CHL) and bring back the Otters..the best time to expand is before the bounce in the economy

Thanks for the laugh! I needed a good chuckle today!

[Komettheclown]

Not sure if USHL, is the way to go for Muskegon,cetainly has not done as well as hoped in Youngstown and even in Des Moines with the AHL gone crowds are down.I think the IHL should be agressive and expand, Louisville.Omaha, Des Moines,Youngstown ( better attendence in the CHL) and bring back the Otters..the best time to expand is before the bounce in the economy

Looks like the USHL is taking your advice on the expansion issue.

If this turns out to be true congratulations to Muskegon. I think the fans will be very happy once they get use to the change. Maybe the Komets will follow next year and finally get back into the same league as Indy.

[Hans]

Looks like the USHL is taking your advice on the expansion issue.

If this turns out to be true congratulations to Muskegon. I think the fans will be very happy once they get use to the change. Maybe the Komets will follow next year and finally get back into the same league as Indy.
I'm going to predict that it'll be a cold day in hell before the Frankes ice a USHL team... unless they are THAT committed to being in a non-union league.

[Primis]

I'm going to predict that it'll be a cold day in hell before the Frankes ice a USHL team... unless they are THAT committed to being in a non-union league.

The Frankes won't ever own a team outside of the IHL, period.

The question then will be, whoever comes in as new ownership, what will they personally want?

[Chaulker]

The Frankes won't ever own a team outside of the IHL, period.

That's a bold statement that has no backing........They've been involved in two league previously that they had no ownership in.

[silvershoes]

Looks like the USHL is taking your advice on the expansion issue.

If this turns out to be true congratulations to Muskegon. I think the fans will be very happy once they get use to the change. Maybe the Komets will follow next year and finally get back into the same league as Indy.

Ok, who are you really? Not a Komets fan, and not knowledgeable about the fans in Indy, Fort Wayne, or Muskegon if you think the "fans will be very happy." You're definitely overestimating the desire for the two teams to be together again if it means the USHL.

Fans can have differing opinions, but we don't need fanbois astroturfing like they do elsewhere.

[pioneer98]

The question then will be, whoever comes in as new ownership, what will they personally want?

Just wanted to point out that just because the IHL may try to ice 7 teams next year does not necessarily mean QC will be back.

Yes, we know that QC's lease with the i wireless Center requires 7 teams. But the league may not care what their lease says and penalize them if they leave, regardless the reason.

It's possible that QC negotiated with the league to avoid a penalty for leaving if it dropped below 7 teams. But the terms on which QC joined the IHL are not public that I'm aware. We only had the one article about their lease.

So really, QC may be facing a penalty if they switch leagues, 7 teams or not.

(Unless of course the whole league folds - then there won't be any penalties.)

[mfrerkes]

So this "Muskegon to the USHL" thing is pretty much looking like a done deal. We can now start speculating if/how/why the IHL could/could not come back for a fourth season.

Sure, they could bring in Evansville....without an adequate arena. Maybe the Chicago Hounds will get a lease at the Sears Centre. What's the point, though?

Kalamazoo and Muskegon leaving the IHL in consecutive seasons basically confirms the league has been, and always will be a sinking ship.

[PIMking]

So this "Muskegon to the USHL" thing is pretty much looking like a done deal. We can now start speculating if/how/why the IHL could/could not come back for a fourth season.

Sure, they could bring in Evansville....without an adequate arena. Maybe the Chicago Hounds will get a lease at the Sears Centre. What's the point, though?

Kalamazoo and Muskegon leaving the IHL in consecutive seasons basically confirms the league has been, and always will be a sinking ship.

Ha the Bismark and Titanic have been laughing at this ship called the IHL for the last couple of years.

[Guardian]

Ha the Bismark and Titanic have been laughing at this ship called the IHL for the last couple of years.

You make history cry kid.

The Titanic....maybe....her loss was due to ignorance and ego.

Bismark went down fighting.

[OlJackDaniels]

I really hope that's not true, that would be a real loss for Muskegon.

The thing is, assuming the attendance numbers aren't inflated (and one never knows) they should pick up another 100 - 200 fans (to the average) in Feb & March. I see Port Huron sold out last night, QC packed in 4,000 and Bloomington 3,000.

I'm not exactly sure how anyone can make money on the USHL without 3,000 fans. I looked at a few of the websites and ticket prices are comparable to the Lumberjacks (some actually ran $15) and several teams average over 3,000 fans.

Also, it's easier to draw interest for Flint, FW and PH then Sioux City Iowa, Lincoln NE and so forth. Travel costs will be higher, salaries of course much lower. I just don't really see how the IHL can let Muskegon go, though with the owners managing the arena the league would have no choice.

And why announce it now? Won't attendance nose dive if people know the lumberjacks are going away? I really think they would wait until the end of the season, and again, it would be a real loss for the fans and the city.

[pioneer98]

The thing is, assuming the attendance numbers aren't inflated (and one never knows) they should pick up another 100 - 200 fans (to the average) in Feb & March. I see Port Huron sold out last night, QC packed in 4,000 and Bloomington 3,000.

QC had 6,200 paid last night. Actual butts in seats was probably somewhere between 5,500 and 6,000.


I'm not exactly sure how anyone can make money on the USHL without 3,000 fans.

Perhaps because they don't pay any player salaries?

[mfosterftw]

I really hope that's not true, that would be a real loss for Muskegon.

As opposed to the complete loss of hockey in Muskegon should the IHL collapse and no other leagues are willing to pick up the market?


I'm not exactly sure how anyone can make money on the USHL without 3,000 fans.

It's a lot easier when you don't pay player salaries and workers comp insurance...


Also, it's easier to draw interest for Flint, FW and PH then Sioux City Iowa, Lincoln NE and so forth.

I can't speak for what the USHL's divisional alignment and schedule might look like next season with 16 teams, but I suspect that they'll have an unbalanced schedule that sees far-flung teams playing each other no more than once home & road. That leaves Muskegon with the bulk of their schedule against NTDP, Indiana, Chicago, Green Bay ("The War on the Shore"?), and Youngstown.


Travel costs will be higher

Are you sure? Remember they only play a 60 game schedule.


And why announce it now?

Because if Muskegon really is going junior next year, they have to be scouting and recruiting NOW. Once that happens it's hard to keep a secret. I heard the rumors were all over the NAHL prospects tournament in Ann Arbor a few weeks ago. I'm actually surprised the news has held out as long as it has.


Won't attendance nose dive if people know the lumberjacks are going away? I really think they would wait until the end of the season, and again, it would be a real loss for the fans and the city.

It might not nose dive if the team keeps winning, ala Charlestown Chiefs. Plus, I think it's important not to dwell on the last fifty years of pro hockey, when it appears the Patulski's are trying to lay the foundation for the next fifty years.

[PIMking]

You make history cry kid.

The Titanic....maybe....her loss was due to ignorance and ego.

Bismark went down fighting.

Yeah I know. But ignorant people wouldn't know probably any other ship wreck. Figured that would be an easy analogy.

[mfosterftw]

Yeah I know. But ignorant people wouldn't know probably any other ship wreck. Figured that would be an easy analogy.

This is Great Lakes territory we're talking here. You can't forget the Fitz...

[mfrerkes]

This is Great Lakes territory we're talking here. You can't forget the Fitz...
Exactly! How many other shipwrecks that occurred on one of the Great Lakes spawned a hit single?

[Primis]

Also, it's easier to draw interest for Flint, FW and PH then Sioux City Iowa, Lincoln NE and so forth.

I think this is fiction. You only need to look a bit south to see that. Kalamazoo heard all the "visiting fans won't fill your barn anymore" and "teams are too far apart to build rivalries" garbage, and so far the Wings are on-pace to outdraw last season's attendance, and it took about 2 seconds to get rivalries with Toledo and Cincy going.

The geographical footprint idea of the IHL is fine for travel and keeping expenses down, but the idea that it somehow means increased fan interest and results in higher attendance due to travelling fans is a complete myth if you're talking about an established hockey market. We're not exactly talking about Rochester, NY being in the same division as Abbotsford, BC here...

It's simple though. The first time someone in Musky's USHL division does something that draws the fans ire, you have a rivalry and the fans get worked into a lather over it.

[-skee-]

Are you sure? Remember they only play a 60 game schedule.


More than half the teams in the USHL are more than 8 hours away from Muskegon. Unless we want to do the IHL year 1 (play 5 other teams), then we'll have to travel other locations.


ETA: Oh, and many Muskegon fans are not happy about the move away from professional hockey.

[mfosterftw]

More than half the teams in the USHL are more than 8 hours away from Muskegon. Unless we want to do the IHL year 1 (play 5 other teams), then we'll have to travel other locations.

Yes, but don't overstate the impact of a handful of weekend trips to cover those interdivisional games (assuming each is just has a home/road vs. those opponents. You're looking at perhaps $20k-$25k in additional bus miles and overnights vs. playing those games "locally." That's not even 2% of your budget.

It's not as though the owners haven't considered this.


ETA: Oh, and many Muskegon fans are not happy about the move away from professional hockey.

How many? It's not as though this has been announced yet. Would they be more happy with no hockey? If the minor league business model doesn't work, why ride it into the ground?

[fattyrc]

http://fwnextweb1.fortwayne.com/ns/sports/tailingthekomets/?p=3427#comments so Muskegon is gonna have 2 (maybe 3 if The Blizzard return next year)? Well the Commish at least confirmed that there will be a USHL team in Muskegon next year.

[pioneer98]

“To my knowledge, and I can’t verify this, there is a USHL team coming in and the Lumberjacks are also staying. I have not talked to the owners in the last couple of days. I don’t have a confirmed answer to give you as I haven’t heard from the ownership, but that’s what I’m hearing on the street. To my knowledge the Muskegon team has done pretty well this year at the gate, and I think this is a very viable league to stay in.”

This makes zero sense. So, the owners decided that they were losing too much money with the Lumberjacks, so why not bring in a USHL team to compete with them? Or is a different ownership group involved? And what of the Blizzard?

The fact that no one is out in front of the media saying "No - the Jacks will be back next year" is concerning. Unless there is something coming in the very near future. But why wait? These kind of rumors can be damaging to a franchise, even if it is planning to return. They need to clear the air very soon if they plan on being back...if they don't plan on being back, well, then they need to find a way to keep it quiet until the end of the season...which is sure what it looks like they are doing. Hope I'm wrong.

[Guardian]

This is Great Lakes territory we're talking here. You can't forget the Fitz...


Exactly! How many other shipwrecks that occurred on one of the Great Lakes spawned a hit single?

Good call.


And the museum up there at Whitefish Point and the one down from the Sault Ste. Marie locks are both well worth the time if you're interested in that sort of thing.

[VOR]

I hope all of those who jumped to conclusions (including the chain-smoking, beer-drinking bus driver in Chicago) feel pretty foolish right now.

Long live pro hockey in Muskegon! :cheer:

http://fwnextweb1.fortwayne.com/ns/sports/tailingthekomets/?p=3427#comments

[hockey]

Looks simple. Jacks to single A. USHL comes in with a new name.

[pioneer98]

I hope all of those who jumped to conclusions (including the chain-smoking, beer-drinking bus driver in Chicago) feel pretty foolish right now.

Long live pro hockey in Muskegon! :cheer:

So the Lumberjacks are going to let some writer in Fort Wayne be their voice to their fans, via the commissioner? And the commissioner even admits he hasn't even spoken to the Jacks' owners about it? Sorry but that is pathetic.

If the rumors that Tim Taylor & company were going to check out a USHL game are valid, then Taylor should be explaining what in the heck was going on. I know they may not be able to comment on a USHL team until something is finalized, but there is absolutely no reason they couldn't comment on their plans for the Lumberjacks...unless they're not coming back, of course. Come on Taylor, clear the air already! I don't want to hear it through Fort Wayne, either, unless they are planning to own one of these teams.

[VOR]

So the Lumberjacks are going to let some writer in Fort Wayne be their voice to their fans, via the commissioner? And the commissioner even admits he hasn't even spoken to the Jacks' owners about it? Sorry but that is pathetic.

If the rumors that Tim Taylor & company were going to check out a USHL game are valid, then Taylor should be explaining what in the heck was going on. I know they may not be able to comment on a USHL team until something is finalized, but there is absolutely no reason they couldn't comment on their plans for the Lumberjacks...unless they're not coming back, of course. Come on Taylor, clear the air already! I don't want to hear it through Fort Wayne, either, unless they are planning to own one of these teams.

What makes you think Tim Taylor owes you (or anybody else) an explanation for his whereabouts at any given time?? I admire the management for keeping their mouths shut...and letting the fans make fools of themselves by posting their supposed inside info all over the Internet. So much for "reliable sources." :wacko:

"Junior Jacks" has a nice ring to it, eh?

[pioneer98]

What makes you think Tim Taylor owes you (or anybody else) an explanation for his whereabouts at any given time?? I admire the management for keeping their mouths shut...

He doesn't owe me anything.

It's terrible business practice to let nasty rumors about your product go on without dispelling them…unless of course they are true.

[VOR]

He doesn't owe me anything.

It's terrible business practice to let nasty rumors about your product go on without dispelling them…unless of course they are true.

Did it ever occur to you that they don't give a rip about alleged rumors on some Internet message board...or if they even know the false info is being spread on the web via "reliable sources"? Comically, the fans on this board feel that the league/team brass need to share all of the inner workings of the management with message board fans...so they can dissect every move that is made and use it for fodder for 17-page threads on some board. And because they didn't do that, this is just the beginning of the "shame on you, Tim/Jeff/Stacey" rants. :byebw:

[pioneer98]

Did it ever occur to you that they don't give a rip about alleged rumors on some Internet message board...

Gee, do you think maybe the rumor has expanded beyond the world of ITB at all? The entire hockey world has heard the rumor at this point.


or if they even know the false info is being spread on the web via "reliable sources"?

If it is false information, the Jacks' owners should be infuriated that someone would try to damage their reputation. THIS IS EXACTLY WHY THEY NEED TO DISPEL THESE RUMORS!

(Again, unless the rumors are true.)

[Quacky]

This whole thing isn't exactly a well-kept secret.

It's been hanging around since the world found out that Lisman wasn't in a position to financially juggle owning two hockey teams. The USHL came calling then.... (http://ushlhockey.blogspot.com/2008/03/ushl-expansion-rumors.html)but was sent away when the Patulskis stepped in and bought the team.

Obviously the USHL liked what they saw a couple years ago. They're a well-run organization with great leadership and a plan for their future development. They were patient. They waited for the day to come. And it appears that the day has, indeed, come.

TT and the Patulskis don't have to say a word to anyone until they're ready to. The word is out there. And it's flying fast around the hockey world. It's that very internet that makes it impossible to keep this sort of news a "secret". Just like we knew when Bloomington was in trouble, just like we knew when Kzoo was jumping before it was announced....there are just too many eyes and ears out there and the information is just too easy to disseminate.

Though I know that there will be hockey fans in Muskegon who will oppose the USHL, I hope they'll at least give it a try. Because the only team on LC Walker ice next year will be wearing the USHL logo on their uniforms. It's good, fun, hard-hitting hockey by young guys who will be a part of your community for a couple of years and who will remember you always as a part of their lives. And it's hockey. As we said when the AHL left the QC, some hockey is better than no hockey at all!!

[Quacky]

http://fwnextweb1.fortwayne.com/ns/sports/tailingthekomets/?p=3427#comments so Muskegon is gonna have 2 (maybe 3 if The Blizzard return next year)? Well the Commish at least confirmed that there will be a USHL team in Muskegon next year.

Does Hextall look for ways to ruin his credibility??!

That "foot in mouth" thing seems to be making its way throughout the IHL. Here's another instance where saying nothing would have been the far better choice....

[Guardian]

If QC had iced a USHL team instead of the drama llama that is the IHL I would still have season tickets.

I would have even accepted a price hike.

[silvershoes]

As opposed to the complete loss of hockey in Muskegon should the IHL collapse and no other leagues are willing to pick up the market?
<snip>

It might not nose dive if the team keeps winning, ala Charlestown Chiefs. Plus, I think it's important not to dwell on the last fifty years of pro hockey, when it appears the Patulski's are trying to lay the foundation for the next fifty years.

Attendance has fallen every time the USHL moved into a pro city. Youngstown, Topeka, Indy, Columbus ... some fans make the jump, a good many do not. (And don't quote stats at me about Indy, those were seriously cooked early on. I saw the curtains at the ends of the stadium.)

Financially, the USHL is a money maker for the owners - if you ignore the attendance issues. With the exception of the Steel, fans pay only $1 or so less despite the lower expenses - and in some cities more. But if attendance falls off, there's no guarantee the owners will net more.

The USHL kids have talent, that's not in question. They don't have the maturity of pro players, and that makes it a somewhat different game.

As for not dwelling on the past fifty years of pro hockey, that's what the fans know and love. The Patulskis may hope they'll focus on the next fifty, but that's not realistic. Fans who've spent years watching pro hockey are aware of the nuances, and will see the differences.

I realize you're a big backer of USHL hockey but what you like is almost immaterial. It's what the fans in Muskegon like and whether they can adapt - or whether they feel the differences too strongly, or whether they feel the tickets prices are simply way too high for the difference in level. This could work, or it could blow up in the Patulskis' faces big time.

There's a site over on Facebook - Keep professional hockey in Muskegon - that currently has over 1000 members. That right there tells me there is going to be a lot of resistance to a USHL team. Noble gesture to "save hockey" or not, somebody forgot the fan base when they were coming up with this scheme, and that's bad business.

[bingdusters]

There's a site over on Facebook - Keep professional hockey in Muskegon - that currently has over 1000 members. That right there tells me there is going to be a lot of resistance to a USHL team. Noble gesture to "save hockey" or not, somebody forgot the fan base when they were coming up with this scheme, and that's bad business.


What's bad business is to continue doing something that's popular that isn't financially viable. Based on your reasoning, the Frankes should have continued to ride the previous IHL death spiral all the way down regardless of costs because of its long history with the league.

If there's really enough support, convince ownership. 3,000 non-refundable deposits for season tickets would make a much better statement than any Facebook page.

[Quacky]

There's a site over on Facebook - Keep professional hockey in Muskegon - that currently has over 1000 members. That right there tells me there is going to be a lot of resistance to a USHL team. Noble gesture to "save hockey" or not, somebody forgot the fan base when they were coming up with this scheme, and that's bad business.

I became a fan of that page, and I see several other people who are not Muskegon fans. (And it just went over 900, not 1000!)

So the truer question might be, how many people in Muskegon really care whether there is professional hockey in LC Walker Arena? I go to 2 or 3 games a season there....and I'm guessing that's more than at least 90% of those who have joined. It's Facebook, after all....not the true Muskegon fan base.

[PapaBear]

I had heard from a couple of sources that the "announcement" was supposed to be made in today's Chronicle about the new team in Muskegon.

No article in today's paper, alas, pro hockey lives on in Muskegon for at least another day.

[mfosterftw]

The USHL kids have talent, that's not in question. They don't have the maturity of pro players, and that makes it a somewhat different game.

How is this different from D1 college football massively outdrawing every football league not called the NFL. Less maturity on those kids too.


As for not dwelling on the past fifty years of pro hockey, that's what the fans know and love. The Patulskis may hope they'll focus on the next fifty, but that's not realistic. Fans who've spent years watching pro hockey are aware of the nuances, and will see the differences.

Every sport has nuances based on level and location.

The Patulskis are looking forward because, as with most of the state they are in, there is no sense in looking back. But consider this... they come from the pro hockey fan background, and arguably saved the franchise when Lisman was exhausted and overextended. Now that it's their money on the line, is it too much for the other hockey fans to trust their fellow fans (i.e., the brothers) to make the right decision on the future of the game?


I realize you're a big backer of USHL hockey but what you like is almost immaterial. It's what the fans in Muskegon like and whether they can adapt - or whether they feel the differences too strongly, or whether they feel the tickets prices are simply way too high for the difference in level. This could work, or it could blow up in the Patulskis' faces big time.

Absolute agreement here, and I have to think the Patulskis understand that risk as well (both financially and the idea that fans will come at them with pitchforks and torches). It's probably why they have neither announced the switch nor addressed the media/fan attention (assuming it's a done deal). They have one chance to make the right pitch. That means explaining to fans the comparison of what is happening on and off the ice. The hockey is only part of the equation - the overall game production and perceived entertainment value is probably the greater portion, because we all know it's the casual fan and not the STH that determines if a franchise is financially viable.


There's a site over on Facebook - Keep professional hockey in Muskegon - that currently has over 1000 members. That right there tells me there is going to be a lot of resistance to a USHL team. Noble gesture to "save hockey" or not, somebody forgot the fan base when they were coming up with this scheme, and that's bad business.

FWIW, I am a fan of the FB page as well, if only to keep it bookmarked and to be able to comment. I'm not discounting the movement, but given the phenomena of FB pages, I'd be more curious to know how active the page is (e.g., comment volume) than how large it may be.

[Rich The Goalie]

Absolute agreement here, and I have to think the Patulskis understand that risk as well (both financially and the idea that fans will come at them with pitchforks and torches). It's probably why they have neither announced the switch nor addressed the media/fan attention (assuming it's a done deal). They have one chance to make the right pitch. That means explaining to fans the comparison of what is happening on and off the ice. The hockey is only part of the equation - the overall game production and perceived entertainment value is probably the greater portion, because we all know it's the casual fan and not the STH that determines if a franchise is financially viable.

The Patulski's aren't the ones taking the risk. They will continue to run the Arena, concession stands, and parking lot and get paid $200,000.00 by the City of Muskegon to do it. A NEW owner is bringing in the USHL and will rent the Arena from them.

[silvershoes]

The Patulskis are looking forward because, as with most of the state they are in, there is no sense in looking back. But consider this... they come from the pro hockey fan background, and arguably saved the franchise when Lisman was exhausted and overextended. Now that it's their money on the line, is it too much for the other hockey fans to trust their fellow fans (i.e., the brothers) to make the right decision on the future of the game?

Not their money. But I'd say the way this has been handled, yes, it's too much to trust them. Fans aren't children who take things on faith because Daddy says so.

I think the fans do appreciate the Lumberjacks and what the Patulskis did to get them back on strong ground, and the attendance reflects that. But what they gave with one hand they're taking away, and in an extremely underhanded manner. It's painfully obvious from the legions of USHL fans posting on boards this isn't a secret anywhere but in the city involved. USHL officials have run their mouths (celebrating a little early), players are being signed, scouts have been hired ...

I think the optimal moment to provide any meaningful excuse is long past, and just about anything they say is going to look like spin and cya. The owners haven't been up front, haven't been honest, with the people that should count (their fans) no matter what happens on the ice, and a whole lot of somebodies haven't been discreet.

You and I both know this isn't the first time it's happened this way. You and I also know that attendance goes down when the USHL goes into a former pro city under the best circumstances, and this isn't the best circumstance.

The fans who live in Muskegon will get the final say in the end. They're not locked into Muskegon hockey or no hockey; there are other pro teams within reach - Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo.

But "take it on trust?" Why would anyone take anything on trust the way this has been handled?

[Karl Racki]

Attendance has fallen every time the USHL moved into a pro city. Youngstown, Topeka, Indy, Columbus ... some fans
Youngstown was not considered a pro town when the USHL moved to town. USHL didn't replace a pro team, they replaced the NAHL. NAHL moved up to the USHL, CHL team was long gone by the time the USHL got to town. Youngstown example is irrelevant. Columbus example is a poor one but they did outdraw the Columbus Stars, the team that folded mid-season in the UHL

Lower attendance but a better business model :grin:


There's a site over on Facebook - Keep professional hockey in Muskegon - that currently has over 1000 members. That right there tells me there is going to be a lot of resistance to a USHL team. Noble gesture to "save hockey" or not, somebody forgot the fan base when they were coming up with this scheme, and that's bad business.
That's pretty irrelevant. You don't need to live near Muskegon and you don't need to attend games to join the group. Also, people join groups as a favor, just join to join, etc. There is no research to support your claim, it's one big assumption

[-skee-]

Because the only team on LC Walker ice next year will be wearing the USHL logo on their uniforms.
Not true. There are several teams that play hockey at the LC. :smile:

[fattyrc]

http://pantagraph.com/sports/hockey/professional/minor/ihl/prairiethunder/article_1922faf0-105b-11df-ad6f-001cc4c03286.html
from Bloomingtons paper. About half way down. The comish once again acknowledges Muskegon looking into a USHL franchise only this time he says nothing about having both a USHL & IHL team (which I personally didn't believe anyway). If the Meetings were Monday & Tuesday my guess is something official could come VERY soon...

[komethckygirl4]

That's pretty irrelevant. You don't need to live near Muskegon and you don't need to attend games to join the group. Also, people join groups as a favor, just join to join, etc. There is no research to support your claim, it's one big assumption

Fans who travel help the arena some way. Not as significant but every bit helps. Having their support does matter.

It just seems like there is more support for the IHL to stay than for Muskegon to change completely to just USHL. Expenses may be less but the average attendance will probably go down quite a lot.

[mfosterftw]

Fans who travel help the arena some way. Not as significant but every bit helps. Having their support does matter.


Any difference in fan travel is more than made up by the number of parents of players from both teams who watch their kid play every game. This will be especially true in Muskegon if they cut into the OHL's recruiting dominance and are able to tap the Michigan talent pool.

[mfrerkes]

Lower attendance but a better business model :grin:
You can bet that's what Tim Taylor & Company were looking for with a move to the USHL. When you don't have to pay players, that's a tremendous amount of overhead that is being cut from the budget.

Travel costs might go up a little bit, and attendance might go down a little bit. However, by slashing their player salaries to essentially nothing, they have plenty of room on the ledger to make those adjustments.

[mfrerkes]

If the Meetings were Monday & Tuesday my guess is something official could come VERY soon...
Somebody on another board vehemently insisted it would be by the end of this week. I have to question the wisdom of breaking this announcement with over two months left in the L-jack's regular season. This isn't the kind of news which will be good for business.

I'm more interested in the IHL's response if it is announced Muskegon will be departing. Will they try to quell the insurrection with a sudden announcement that Evansville will play in 2010-11 at Swonder Arena? Will they give some nebulous statement about expansion markets currently under consideration?

I still don't see the IHL going down without a fight. It will take another team's departure in the off-season (or before) to bring Franke-Stein's Monster to its knees.

[maddog]

Any difference in fan travel is more than made up by the number of parents of players from both teams who watch their kid play every game. This will be especially true in Muskegon if they cut into the OHL's recruiting dominance and are able to tap the Michigan talent pool.

I'm thinking you are giving to much importance to parents. The parents could live hundreds of miles away; if USHL is like the WHL. Went to a few WHL games here. Few fans traveling for the other team. Watched two games with the same two teams. One game had a dozen fans from the opposing team there. The next had none.

I'm not too familier with USHL but wouldn't any team go after a national talent pool vs. targeting some talent in the local area that may not qualify for the league. This argument only goes to those that oppose juniors.

[Quacky]

Fans who travel help the arena some way. Not as significant but every bit helps. Having their support does matter.

It just seems like there is more support for the IHL to stay than for Muskegon to change completely to just USHL. Expenses may be less but the average attendance will probably go down quite a lot.

I think what he's saying is that many of the people who are on that FB page will never step foot in Muskegon, much less attend a hockey game there.

Support for the IHL in Muskegon may be coming from many fronts, but unless those people are backing up their support with season tickets, or at the very minimum attending several games a season, all the support in the world isn't going to help pay the bills!!

Personally, I haven't seen Timmy or the Patulskis make very many serious mistakes in the last couple of years....and Taylor for a few years before that. They're smart businessmen who know what they need to do to get where they want to be.

For some strange reason it seems that stability, good governance, strong owners and a developmental plan appeal to them. All of which isn't within the realm of possibility in the IHL....especially with league management such as it is. These are the guys who decided on the highest cap in AA hockey. Now they have to live with their decisions....or their failure to take action!

[silvershoes]

Youngstown was not considered a pro town when the USHL moved to town. USHL didn't replace a pro team, they replaced the NAHL.
Only by USHL fans. Same owner - he'd had the NAHL team for years, and switched. And nice league that the USHL is, they announced the switch before the stubborn NAHL kids finished winning their championship.


Lower attendance but a better business model :grin:Yeah, a better business model predicated on treating the fans like they're too stupid to know what they want and happy to pony up the bucks. A better business model that includes repeated lies and half truths. I don't think the USHL has much room to throw stones at other leagues - they have some serious credibility issues of their own.


That's pretty irrelevant. You don't need to live near Muskegon and you don't need to attend games to join the group. Also, people join groups as a favor, just join to join, etc. There is no research to support your claim, it's one big assumptionJust keep telling yourself that.

Remember New Coke? One of the biggest marketing blunders of all time because the powers that be didn't pay attention to their public. This is New Coke.

[mfrerkes]

Just keep telling yourself that.

Remember New Coke? One of the biggest marketing blunders of all time because the powers that be didn't pay attention to their public. This is New Coke.
The announcement hasn't even been made and the team hasn't played a single USHL game in Muskegon yet, and already you've decided it's a blunder?

It might not be the rousing success that a team like, say, the Dayton Gems has become this season...but I'm sure Muskegon will be able to attract enough support to avoid being the "New Coke" of organized hockey.

[mfosterftw]

I'm thinking you are giving to much importance to parents. The parents could live hundreds of miles away; if USHL is like the WHL. Went to a few WHL games here. Few fans traveling for the other team. Watched two games with the same two teams. One game had a dozen fans from the opposing team there. The next had none.

I've followed the Texas Tornado for the better part of a decade, and 2/3rd to 3/4ths of parents were coming to each game, regardless of the distance. After spending the previous few seasons playing for midget teams with annual costs of anywhere between $8k - $18k, playing in the USHL and just spending for parents travel is like a vacation.


I'm not too familier with USHL

Then perhaps it's best to stop while you are ahead...


but wouldn't any team go after a national talent pool vs. targeting some talent in the local area that may not qualify for the league. This argument only goes to those that oppose juniors.

Of course any team is going to scout and recruit nationally, but are you suggesting there's no major junior talent in Michigan? There are eleven Michigan kids on the active rosters for just Saginaw and Plymouth. Sault and Windsor have a combined five more, and I can't tell how many are on Sarnia. That's nearly a full roster from just a quarter of the OHL. Part of the appeal of placing a team in Muskegon is the opportunity to keep those kids playing in the USA.

[-skee-]

I think what he's saying is that many of the people who are on that FB page will never step foot in Muskegon, much less attend a hockey game there.

That's not true. I've looked through the names of every. single. person. in that group and more than 3/4 either live in Muskegon or are from Muskegon.

[Karl Racki]

Only by USHL fans. Same owner - he'd had the NAHL team for years, and switched. And nice league that the USHL is, they announced the switch before the stubborn NAHL kids finished winning their championship.And the point is.....Most of the kids on that team moved on to college from that team, wasn't going to affect them anyways. By the way, Youngstown wasn't a pro city. Nice try though, keep trying silver


Yeah, a better business model predicated on treating the fans like they're too stupid to know what they want and happy to pony up the bucks. A better business model that includes repeated lies and half truths. I don't think the USHL has much room to throw stones at other leagues - they have some serious credibility issues of their own.
What credibility issues? What lies and half truths? You don't have to pay worker's compensation or pay the players. It's more profitable league for the owners, meaning a better business model.



Remember New Coke? One of the biggest marketing blunders of all time because the powers that be didn't pay attention to their public. This is New Coke.
The USHL will be successful in Muskegon. Comparing New Coke to Hockey, are you serious? Great comparison. Hockey will live on Muskegon, fans will adjust and those that do not, can watch pro hockey on TV or travel to Grand Rapids for pro hockey.

95289529 facebook members joined "Bring back the A-Team", in silver shoes world - 7.7 Rating for re-runs on NBC Primetime since so many members joined the facebook group. I wonder how many joined the myspace group, I'm sure you are the administrator for the group.

[Hans]

Yeah, a better business model predicated on treating the fans like they're too stupid to know what they want and happy to pony up the bucks. A better business model that includes repeated lies and half truths.
You're talking about the Co/U/IHL here, right?

I mean, aren't you one of the chorus that attempts to shout down anyone who dares question the wisdom or decisions of any owner who happens to agree with the Frankes?

[-skee-]

The USHL will be successful in Muskegon.
That's a pretty strong assumption, especially since it'll take years to gain back a lot of the die-hard hockey fans.

[OlJackDaniels]

The thing is, Muskegon likes its IHL hockey and the IHL likes Muskegon. As long as the IHL is around, Muskegon needs to be a part of it.

Is there better prospective talent in the USHL than the IHL? Perhaps, but the thing is high caliber players aren't necessarily Muskegon's
style. It's a blue collar town, people can relate more to a guy who goes out and skates for a meager check with big dreams than a kid who shows a little more potential for his age. That doesn't make the city masochist or anything, but Muskegon has always been a town of
workers, and that's who they can best relate to.

Kalamazoo is ambitious, part of why they left is the owners want a new arena downtown and will do anything to get it. Plus they have an owner that is filthy rich and has no concerns of not pulling in a profit. Has Muskegon EVER asked for anything?
No they haven't, they like the Walker Arena and want it to be around forever. They were perfectly happy with it pre-renovation (ok... maybe happy is
a bit of an overstatement, perhaps content) and only paid for a renovation after the original Jacks left town, and in hopes to prevent a repeat with the Fury.

The IHL is what Muskegon wants and needs, it is a perfect fit for both. But if the owners are getting paid that kind of money to manage the arena, and don't have to
foot any business risk, it may make sense for them. But the city of Muskegon (county... whoever runs the place) should terminate there contract if they go through with this.

I really hope they can keep the IHL in Muskegon. Problems and all, it is the most viable league to keep pro hockey in Muskegon. Plus there are several high school teams (and the community college also has/had a team) already playing at the smaller rinks in Mona Shores.

For those of you who aren't from Muskegon, don't try to say the USHL is better. This is a community (along with Flint) that has stuck with a league that could have folded multiple times over the last 20 years. Seldom has the conference ever been very stable, there have always been struggles, and I think people in Muskegon can relate to that. Muskegon will always just be Muskegon, and the IHL will always be the IHL/UHL/CoHL. Both like being what they are, and are resistant to change. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.

[hockey]

Muskegon will always just be Muskegon, and the IHL will always be the IHL/UHL/CoHL. Both like being what they are, and are resistant to change. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.

So your saying misery loves company and thats why the IHL should stay in M.

If you always accept what you always get, then you will always have what you always have.

USA Hockey needs Muskegon to go to the USHL. Its a big step in the development of USA talent. If you miss this opportunity, and stick to the IHL. When the whole thing folds, i am sure Fort Wayne will be happy to take the USHL franchise and leave you sitting in a decapitated arena watching the AAHL.

[mfrerkes]

This is a community (along with Flint) that has stuck with a league that could have folded multiple times over the last 20 years. Seldom has the conference ever been very stable, there have always been struggles, and I think people in Muskegon can relate to that. Muskegon will always just be Muskegon, and the IHL will always be the IHL/UHL/CoHL. Both like being what they are, and are resistant to change. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.
There's nothing wrong with clinging to tradition. Unfortunately, clinging to tradition might not always pay the bills.

[silvershoes]

By the way, Youngstown wasn't a pro city. Nice try though, keep trying silver

How quickly you've forgotten the CHL Steelhounds. Bad dookie, Karl Racki. Then the current USHL owner put his NAHL team in before moving up. Well whoopie to your revisionist history.

Look, Topeka lasted 2 seasons in the USHL. They moved to St. Louis and lasted one.

Columbus lasted 2 seasons in the USHL. It beat the UHL's record, but didn't last.

The Danville Wings last 1 season after years in the NAHL, so apparently being a juniors city didn't help their cause. They're the team that moved to Indy, and frankly if they hadn't been owned by a guy married to a fortune I'm not convinced they'd have survived either.

It's a bad business model. The USHL has a place, but going into former pro cities isn't a smart move.

[Primis]

It's a bad business model. The USHL has a place, but going into former pro cities isn't a smart move.

It seems to have worked fine in Indy.

[silvershoes]

It seems to have worked fine in Indy.

That shows how very little you know about Indy. It's not a normal hockey situation by any stretch of the imagination.

[Primis]

That shows how very little you know about Indy. It's not a normal hockey situation by any stretch of the imagination.

You said "USHL going into former pro cities isn't a smart move".

Indy is a former pro city. They now draw 3,300-3,500 avg. for a USHL team.

Were it not for the USHL, there'd be no hockey in Indy right now probably, much like Muskegon's situation seems to now be where it appears the IHL is not sticking around, and either the market can go the USHL route or have no hockey at all.

How exactly is that not relevant to a conversation about Muskegon possibly going to the USHL? It appears to me a former pro market can, in fact, have a USHL team come in and be supported well and be successful.

[silvershoes]

You said "USHL going into former pro cities isn't a smart move".

Indy is a former pro city. They now draw 3,300-3,500 avg. for a USHL team.

Boy are you making some assumptions here.

So: Indy is my hometown and I lived this.

When a pro city goes to the USHL, the existing fans fall into three basic categories:

1. Those who transition to junior hockey.
2. Those who walk away and never give junior hockey a chance.
3. Those who try to transition to junior hockey, find it unsatisfying, and leave later.

Both #2 and #3 reduce the size of the fan base. The team continues (if they have the funds) and attempts to sell new fans on the team. Indy was no different.

The ringer in Indy is that the owner is so rich (by marriage) he can afford to keep the team in the USHL even if there are zero fans. I'm not saying they have zero fans, I'm saying he could do it. Certainly he had the money to carry the team until it got new fans, and Indy is large enough there were plenty of people to draw from. But I well remember the ends of the Pepsi being curtained off to make attendance look better in the early years.

The downside of having an owner that rich is that he doesn't have to listen to anyone, especially the fans. He only has to please himself, and sometimes that shows up in funny ways like turnover in the organization.


Were it not for the USHL, there'd be no hockey in Indy right now probably, much like Muskegon's situation seems to now be where it appears the IHL is not sticking around, and either the market can go the USHL route or have no hockey at all.

On the contrary, if there were no USHL in Indy there would be a pro team by now. I don't know what level, but various groups have been interested and still are. The USHL owner has enough clout that he's been able to block access to ice, but you can still find discussions by pro fans waiting for him to get tired of his toy.

FWIW, I was in camp #3. I tried to like USHL hockey, and I'm not here to say one word against the kids who play it. It just couldn't hold my interest, because the kids aren't at that level of maturity yet. And I'm not unusual on that score - go read the fan comments in Youngstown's Vindicator. Fans remember, especially after years of exposure to pro hockey. Muskegon's had pro for 50 years - that's longer than Youngstown. Fans aren't going to forget that easily. If Muskegon really does this, it will have its own groups #1, 2, 3, and attendance will fall for a time.

As a matter of curiosity, I ran across the roster for Danville last night looking for something else. It only matters because the Indiana franchise came from Danville, and I attended a game there to check out the new team after it was announced. (Well, announced to Indy fans, Danville didn't know. That's an ugly little habit of the USHL, blindsiding the fans.)

There were at least 4 players on that roster who have played in the I this season. So for all the talk of "players to the NHL" it looks more like the USHL provides players to the IHL 5 years later. That's not a bad thing, they're all good, it's more a comment on the way the USHL markets itself and the maturity thing. Take over pro cities, and they're killing job opportunities for their own alumni. Oops.

[Hans]

SS, after the years of partisan tactics you've used on these boards, your intellectual dishonesty shouldn't surprise me -- and yet, somehow, every time to resort to it, I'm still astonished.

In this situation, you're making many fallacies -- first of all, you're demonizing the USHL for its "bad business model" and decrying its "blindsiding of the fans", as if it were this monolithic, evil business entity... and yet, as I understand it, any proposed USHL franchise for 2010-11 wouldn't be an expansion franchise.

The onus for this proposed move seems to be entirely on your Muskegon IHL owners - which means that THEY should be the target of your partisan smear campaign, not the USHL. If the the existing Muskegon IHL owners thought they could continue to financially support their IHL team, OR thought they could sell the IHL team to an ownership who would continue to make the arena their home.... do you really think this discussion would be happening here on the boards?

This isn't a situation where the big bad mean USHL is attempting to dismantle a pro league, and to rip away Muskegon's "righful" pro hockey franchise. This is a situation in which the latest in a long string of ownership groups has (apparently) decided that pro hockey isn't a viable business model for their own market - and are attempting to keep the arena management business viable by allowing another model to attempt to succeed in the arena. It may fail, absolutely. But the local owners have (apparently) decided that pro hockey WILL fail, if it continues. Where do you get the chutzpah to demand that they keep pro hockey in Muskegon, by hook or by crook? Especially given the fact that you don't even live there?

You don't like this move -- it's clear, and it's unsurprising, given your bind devotion to any pro-Franke situation, and your dogged demonization of anything that falls outside that parameter. That's your prerogative. But once again, attempting to smear the USHL as a league and a product with these canards is nothing more than the kind of ad hominem attack that is the signature of your posts on these boards.

Stay classy, babe.

[mfosterftw]

You said "USHL going into former pro cities isn't a smart move".

Indy is a former pro city. They now draw 3,300-3,500 avg. for a USHL team.

Other pro cities in the USHL include Omaha, Des Moines, Waterloo, and Green Bay. They all seem to be doing okay.

[fattyrc]

this is my own personal opinion but I also think the USHL will not make it in Muskegon. The average Muskegon fan likes the 50 year tradition of pro hockey in this city. yes a lot (including myself) will check it out but with Grand Rapids not far away I can see the Griffins getting a small boost to there attendance because of this (maybe even K-Zoo too). I'm not bashing Junior Hockey but I will be surprised if it lasts more than a year or two in Musky

[mfosterftw]

I have to love these open minds offering what are ultimately self-fulfilling prophecies.


Since everyone's tossed out their data and talking points until they are blue in the face, I'm going to change it up and get a little philosophical. As many of the locals seem to be hung up on this matter of tradition, I will offer some quotes to consider on the concept:

Tradition is the illusion of permanence.

Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay.

Tradition is an explanation for acting without thinking.

Tradition simply means that we need to end what began well and continue what is worth continuing.

Tradition is a guide and not a jailer.

Tradition is a prison with majority opinion the modern jailer.

Tradition may be defined as an extension of the franchise. Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead.

Tradition does not mean that the living are dead, it means that the dead are living.

As soon as tradition has come to be recognized as tradition, it is dead.

Imagination continually frustrates tradition; that is its function.

At every crossroads on the path that leads to the future, tradition has placed 10,000 men to guard the past.

Traditionalists are pessimists about the future and optimists about the past.

Tradition does not mean that the living are dead, but that the dead are living.

We don't want tradition. We want to live in the present and the only history that is worth a tinker's dam is the history we make today. (Henry Ford)

In every revolution there intrude, at the side of its true agents, men of a different stamp; some of them survivors of and devotees to past revolutions, without insight into the present movement, but preserving popular influence by their known honesty and courage, or by the sheer force of tradition; others mere brawlers, who, by dint of repeating year after year the same set of stereotyped declamations against the government of the day, have sneaked into the reputation of revolutionists of the first water They are an unavoidable evil: with time they are shaken off.

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it. (Buddha)


Is there there a point to this? I suppose so. I've lived in Michigan. I graduated from high school there. My wife is from the state, and we visit it frequently. What's biggest tradition of the last 50 years has been in the state? It's the decline of its economy. The industrial prominence of the state peaked in the 50's and it's been downhill ever since. I suppose since that's the tradition, that folks should hang onto it.

I happen to live somewhere that things are done a little differently. Despite being a good two years into this recession, we are just starting to feel some impact (after decades of incredible growth). I talk to friends and family from the state all the time about the differences between Michigan and Texas. About why there's economic progress in one state and not the other. The answer about why the things done in Texas can't be done in Michigan ultimately come down to a refusal to change. That's what happened in Detroit. That's what's happened to the politicians in Lansing. That's what's happened everywhere in the state, regardless of what industry you're talking about.

The bottom line is that tradition is not all it's cracked up to be.

[fattyrc]

Jeez, sorry if I touched a nerve... I guess you didn't read the part where I said "this is my own personal opinion"

[mfosterftw]

Jeez, sorry if I touched a nerve... I guess you didn't read the part where I said "this is my own personal opinion"

Sorry I touched a nerve if you think that your post was the only one I was addressing. This is all opinion. Some of it is backed with facts, and some of it is backed with emotion.

[Quacky]

The thing is, Muskegon likes its IHL hockey and the IHL likes Muskegon. As long as the IHL is around, Muskegon needs to be a part of it.

<>

The IHL is what Muskegon wants and needs, it is a perfect fit for both. But if the owners are getting paid that kind of money to manage the arena, and don't have to
foot any business risk, it may make sense for them. But the city of Muskegon (county... whoever runs the place) should terminate there contract if they go through with this.

I really hope they can keep the IHL in Muskegon. Problems and all, it is the most viable league to keep pro hockey in Muskegon. Plus there are several high school teams (and the community college also has/had a team) already playing at the smaller rinks in Mona Shores.

For those of you who aren't from Muskegon, don't try to say the USHL is better. This is a community (along with Flint) that has stuck with a league that could have folded multiple times over the last 20 years. Seldom has the conference ever been very stable, there have always been struggles, and I think people in Muskegon can relate to that. Muskegon will always just be Muskegon, and the IHL will always be the IHL/UHL/CoHL. Both like being what they are, and are resistant to change. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with that.

The Co/UHL was stable, and relatively free of struggles, pre-2000. Then all the changes started, the bringing in of new teams, more relocating of existing teams, teams folding. The next 5 or 6 years were pretty hellish for the league....but Muskegon was always an outstanding member and contributor.

For several UHL teams, the politics of the league became too much to take. Strong teams--Rockford, Quad City, Elmira--left. And the league was in a predicament. They needed 6 teams to exist. Bloomington needed an infusion of cash to continue its existence.

Enter Tony Lisman, the stalwart owner who always tried to do what was best for the league. With a little help from a couple of friends, he stepped up and bought Bloomington, essentially saving the league. The problem was, Lisman couldn't afford to keep two franchises operating. And the "help" disappeared. The Prairie Thunder took some hits, but that strong and dependable Muskegon franchise also took some pretty serious financial hits.

We all know the outcome....both teams were sold, and Lisman is out of professional hockey. But, along with all of those very positive things he had done over the years, he left another mark. A financial situation in Muskegon that left the new owners in a pretty deep hole, responsible for some debts that they most certainly didn't accumulate. They were willing to accept the problems and try to work through them.

And, through all of this, attendance at Muskegon games has remained relatively stable...averaging 2700 two years ago, 2900 last season, and 2800 this season. That 2600-2700 that made enough money for the franchise 3-5 years ago isn't quite enough anymore.

There are those pesky debts. Those are in addition to rising costs--living and utility costs for the players, workers comp, gas for road trips, salaries, equipment, and the costs of just plain remaining competitive. Everything's getting more expensive. Sometimes on a daily basis! And a good chunk of the fans who make up that 2800 average this year are from attendance at about a dozen Sunday games, where tickets cost only $5. Those certainly aren't money-making games...they're a marketing effort to try to increase the crowd size for the other 26 home games in the season. They made season tickets extremely affordable, especially for those who purchased early. They've iced a fantastic and competitive team. They've tried. Hard.

So then the question becomes, after all of these efforts, when does it become too much for the ownership? Apparently this season. They've worked their tails off. Fans have remained loyal, but the economy has not been kind to hockey, or to Michigan and hockey in Muskegon.

I so totally understand where the fans in Muskegon are coming from....emotions are strong and loyalties are fierce. We're not even a year away from that. I can relate. But there comes a point where you have to set emotion aside, to look at things with a practical eye. It appears that's where the Patulskis and Taylor are right now. They've lost money over the last couple of years, and it could well be that they've lost as much as they feel they can afford to lose. Do you really think that they're happy having to do this? The Patulskis have been a part of that hockey tradition in Muskegon as fans for years. They don't want hockey gone.

So, rather than removing hockey completely from Muskegon, they're doing the best they can. They're bringing in hockey that can be sustained in Muskegon. If the fans give it a shot. I'm not going to tell anyone that they should or shouldn't support the USHL. But I will tell you this. We're supporting IHL hockey in the Quad Cities this season because it's the best we can get, not because we're all enamoured with the outstanding level of play. But it's hockey. And if that hockey were the USHL in the Quad Cities, I'd still be there supporting it. I've seen it. It's good, physical, tough. And, bottom line, it's hockey.....

[fattyrc]

no longer a rumor... Tim Taylor confirmed that they are "in Talks" with the USHL
http://www.mlive.com/lumberjacks/index.ssf/2010/02/muskegon_lumberjack_owners_con.html