Wheeling returning to ECHL...ECHL adding teams?

[pioneer98]

http://www.wtrf.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=75461&catid=3

[maddog]

http://www.wtrf.com/story.cfm?func=viewstory&storyid=75461&catid=3

Interesting...adding three teams. Just wondering what cities/teams they are talking about.

[Pete]

Good news on Wheeling.

In this economy and the challenging proposition of minor league sports to begin with, I just can't see three brand new organizations chomping at the bit to get going less than 8 months before the puck drops on the 2010-11 ECHL season.
Maybe the three potentials could be Quad City, Ft. Wayne and Bloomington? Just a guess.

[fattyrc]

Good news on Wheeling.

In this economy and the challenging proposition of minor league sports to begin with, I just can't see three brand new organizations chomping at the bit to get going less than 8 months before the puck drops on the 2010-11 ECHL season.
Maybe the three potentials could be Quad City, Ft. Wayne and Bloomington? Just a guess.

Those were the exact three teams I was thinking of too... since it said possibly 3 new teams maybe they are waiting to see what happens with Flint & waiting to see if Evansville & Chicago join, cuz if those two can't join (which I seriously doubt they will) & Flint can't make it another year than the IHL is dead.

[Primis]

Those were the exact three teams I was thinking of too... since it said possibly 3 new teams maybe they are waiting to see what happens with Flint & waiting to see if Evansville & Chicago join, cuz if those two can't join (which I seriously doubt they will) & Flint can't make it another year than the IHL is dead.

The problem with those 3 is that Bloomington, quietly, is not in good shape either. A Franke has ownership in them at least partially, and their building has an uncertain future unless they can manage to get it to start turning a profit. It's not the mess Flint or Dayton are, but quietly they've been drawing less and less fans as time goes on...

It's really only QC and Fort Wayne that would any real shot at hanging in a different league, I think. Muskegon could too I still think, but no ownership could ever step forward and make them profitable, so now with the USHL in town they're out of the running.

[pioneer98]

What I find very interesting about this is that it just about has to be decided already what is going to happen next year in the ECHL. The ECHL really likes to get everything set very early for the following season, and they've already announced the relocations and things for next year. I bet it's already been decided if they are going to let these 2 or 3 teams in or not. If so, I'd guess that at least a preliminary agreement has already been made with whoever these 2 or 3 teams are.

My guess is that either they aren't adding any teams or they may simply be holding off on an announcement until the end of the season out of courtesy. They generally don't accept teams that have to "sort things out". Who knows - this year may be different with everything up in the air like it is.

[Segelrj]

Potential teams that I think could (not will/would) move to the ECHL would be Bloomington, Fort Wayne and Quad Cities from the IHL, Arizona from the CHL and Knoxville or Fayetteville from the SPHL. I also think expansion sites in San Diego and/or Fresno could be possibilities and if the Sens move their AHL team to Cornwall and the TUC is unable to get a team, then Albany and/or Binghamton could receive franchises. Here is my breakdown of these situations:

1. The IHL 3
Fort Wayne and Quad Cities would both be great fits for the North Division with Cincy, K-Zoo and Toledo (expecting Wheeling to be moved to the East Division). I think QC will jump if they do enact their 7-team clause, but for profitability, I think they should wait until FtW jumps.

Bloomington could substitute for FtW if they and QC were to jump, but if they are in as much trouble as Primis says then I think it'd be too risky for the E and QC.

The best case scenario would be all three jumping at the same time. Primis do you think a jump to the E (if QC and FtW jump first) would help make Bloomington profitable again?

2. San Diego/Fresno
I know there was talk about San Diego possibly rejoining the league, but with Charlotte returning its membership to the ECHL, it seems very unlikely that San Diego will come back.

To the best of my knowledge (which is little) the Fresno Monsters have been profitable enough to jump from the WSHL (Tier III) to the NAHL (Tier II) with much higher travel costs than they had in the WSHL. Still think Fresno is a long shot, but McKenna really wants a team back there. With their agreement to join the NAHL next year, Fresno is probably not going to happen either.

3. Arizona
One thing I was considering was trying to get the Arizona Sundogs to jump from the CHL to the ECHL. Adding them to the Pacific Division with Bako, Ontario, Stockton and Vegas would make it easier on travel costs then their current situation in the CHL (IMO). If SD and/or Fresno receive franchises then Arizona or Las Vegas could move to the West Division or the league could combine the two into one division, although I don't know a 1 division Nat'l Conf and a three division Amer Conf would look very "professional league"-ish.

4. Fayetteville and Knoxville
Knoxville is a former ECHL market and with the recent dominance of the SPHL by the Ice Bears, I think a step up to AA could pay off with an affiliation with Nashville. (Do Knoxvillians/Knoxvillites have the same disdain for Nashvillians as Memphians do?)

Fayetteville, NC has supported the FireAntz very well and they could keep North Carolina in the ECHL. Also most of the teams in the South Division (Greenville, Gwinnett and SC) are a shorter distance than Knoxville, their closest opponent in the SPHL.

Although these two would fit well in the ECHL, they have it very well in the SPHL and the league is the only stable A league in the nation. So the only reason for either or both teams to jump would be only to play AA and save money on player contracts as a developmental team.

5. Albany and Binghamton
If the Baby Sens move to Cornwall and Albany can not get the Sabres or Rangers, I think Albany and Binghamton could join the ECHL (Binghamton being a better fit than Albany due to arena size and location in southern New York State instead up upper). Although this all depends on whether the AHL will return to these cities next year and the longer the final word on AHL Albany and Bingo then the less likely they are to be in the ECHL.

Sorry for the long post, I await your criticism. :byebw:

[Wings Rule]

Moving from the SPHL to the ECHL would NOT save money on player contracts. Teams in the ECHL pay a lot of money for the "privilege" to have AHL players on their rosters. Affiliations sound great in theory, but on paper they aren't all they are cracked up to be.

Ask some of the long-time ECHLers on the board who some of their favorite players are. You are gonna hear a lot more of the Darren Schwartz, Rod Taylor, Chris Valicevic-type players than some 7th round draft pick of the Atlanta Thrashers whose name nobody will remember in two years.

Just my two cents...

[Bob Rotruck]

Although this all depends on whether the AHL will return to these cities next year and the longer the final word on AHL Albany and Bingo then the less likely they are to be in the ECHL


I really don't know about this. Yes, the ECHL says they need the teams and organizations set super-far ahead of time for various reasons. But they've also shown that they're willing to roll with it and make some late changes. K-Zoo ended up joining around July last year after the schedule was already set.

The ECHL could look at a late application from a place like Bingo and say, "kind of late to get this started...maybe next year" but I can also see them just deciding to go for it in such a situation as well.

Same kind of goes for the IHL teams if something were to happen there. If the league was set to go for another season and then ended up falling apart in July then I could see the ECHL accepting them similar to how they did it with KZoo.

There could be some stalling involved to try to get to 7 teams for Davenport and then some organizing and wait-and-see stuff. Who knows? I have very little idea about that league except what I read on here.

In other words, I'm not going to be 100% convinced on the line-up of teams in different leagues in June even if all the leagues insist they are all set and there will be no further changes. There's always that seed of doubt.

[fattyrc]

I still think it's the IHL 3. I think if that is the case it is already set but the announcements won't come till after the playoffs. If you announce right now that the IHL is done after this season than winning a championship won't mean as much (unless Muskegon wins since they are done anyway).

[hockey]

I still think it's the IHL 3. I think if that is the case it is already set but the announcements won't come till after the playoffs. If you announce right now that the IHL is done after this season than winning a championship won't mean as much (unless Muskegon wins since they are done anyway).

Winning a championship is always going to mean something. The real issue would be to announce only some of the teams, that would surely deter fans from attending the dieing teams games.

A proper way to handle it would be for the ECHL to announce that it is going to be evaluating the membership applications of all teams at the conclusion of the season. Flint and Dayton will get a look and if they can meet requirements they will be considered. Of course they don't need to have any intention of allowing the teams in. But if some craziness happens and they secure some decent ownership and a big plan, they would have a sliver of a chance.

This way QC, Bloomington and Fort Wayne can start selling their long term stability to their respective communities and generating sponsorship leads.

I would still make the argument that the IHL should simply join the PHPA and then work with the ECHL/CHL on a cross schedule.

[SteveMacD]

I really don't have a feel for what's going to happen this offseason. I know that the new ownership group in Dayton intends on returning next season. I think the IHL comes back, maybe even with eight teams (which includes the relocation of the Flint and Port Huron franchises). Not that any of that is a good idea.

I'm more curious about what happens with the ECHL and AHL. Another rumor I've heard is that the Monsters are moving out to the West, and Cleveland will get an ECHL team.

This should be one heckuva silly season.

[pioneer98]

I really don't have a feel for what's going to happen this offseason. I know that the new ownership group in Dayton intends on returning next season. I think the IHL comes back, maybe even with eight teams (which includes the relocation of the Flint and Port Huron franchises). Not that any of that is a good idea.

I'm more curious about what happens with the ECHL and AHL. Another rumor I've heard is that the Monsters are moving out to the West, and Cleveland will get an ECHL team.

This should be one heckuva silly season.

8 teams with Flint and Port Huron relocated??? To where? Maybe Johnstown...and...?

To get up to 8, both Evansville and Chicago would both have to happen on top of Flint finding a new owner. Seems awfully far fetched but I guess anything is possible.

[SteveMacD]

8 teams with Flint and Port Huron relocated??? To where? Maybe Johnstown...and...?

To get up to 8, both Evansville and Chicago would both have to happen on top of Flint finding a new owner. Seems awfully far fetched but I guess anything is possible.
Since this is the rumors section...

Fort Wayne
Quad City
Bloomington
Dayton
Flint -> Springfield, IL
Port Huron -> Ann Arbor
Chicago
Evansville

[hockey]

Since this is the rumors section...

Apples now equal Bananas!

[SteveMacD]

Apples now equal Bananas!
I said RUMORS section, not SURREALIST section.

[Segelrj]

I don't think having an IHL team compete against Big Blue is a good idea...also where would the Springfield franchise play at?

I really want to believe the IHL 3 will be coming over in the summer, but if they do would Wheeling have to be moved to the East Division to accompany the addition of Bloomington, Fort Wayne and the Quad Cities?

[pioneer98]

If the IHL goes to 8 teams, the talent will be diluted to a pathetic level. The best team - Muskegon - is folding and most of those guys aren't coming back with any team. Replace Muskegon with not one but two expansion teams? Dayton and QC will still only be 2nd year expansion teams themselves...and another team will still be the struggling Flint franchise, wherever they land. That's 5 teams that will likely not be very good. The Komets could win 60 games next year in this scenario unless they decide to use autopilot the first half of the season again. Or unless they shorten the schedule.

[FWKRTJ]

If the IHL goes to 8 teams, the talent will be diluted to a pathetic level. The best team - Muskegon - is folding and most of those guys aren't coming back with any team. Replace Muskegon with not one but two expansion teams? Dayton and QC will still only be 2nd year expansion teams themselves...and another team will still be the struggling Flint franchise, wherever they land. That's 5 teams that will likely not be very good. The Komets could win 60 games next year in this scenario unless they decide to use autopilot the first half of the season again. Or unless they shorten the schedule.

Please explain???

A lot of people talk about the old UHL having better talent than the current IHL...and that's when there were 10-15 more teams in minor league hockey.

Just be the sheer numbers, the IHL would be guranteed to have better hockey with less teams in minor league hockey so long as they maintain an "AA" status.

The last two comments are completely speculation and bias. Fort Wayne on auto pilot? Yeah, right...they're intentionally losing games...

No one can help how Quad City has the roster they have other than Anzalone and Lechinski... How this has any major affect on the rest of the IHL is beyond me.

[FWKRTJ]

BTW, I seem to remember an expansion team that was leading the UHL when it folded...Columbus Stars. Just because Quad City has been troubled with expansion doesn't mean it's guranteed.

[pioneer98]

Please explain???

A lot of people talk about the old UHL having better talent than the current IHL...and that's when there were 10-15 more teams in minor league hockey.

Just be the sheer numbers, the IHL would be guranteed to have better hockey with less teams in minor league hockey so long as they maintain an "AA" status.

To attract all this talent to a non-affiliated, non-union league, it takes cash. Michael Franke himself commented on how "expensive" it is to be in 2nd place like PoHo is this year. In this 8 team scenario we are talking about, there would be 4 teams (and maybe 5) that simply could not ever hope to compete with the Komets on payroll. The more talented players are going to play in the ECHL, CHL, Europe, or simply retire like Muskegon's guys.

QC probably could spend more on salaries than they are, but Lencheski is trying to turn a profit. He doesn't seem willing to take a loss like so many owners in AA. And the fact that the salary cap is a mere inconvenience is part of the problem in AA hockey, and especially the IHL. I have to believe it really hurt Muskegon over the years, trying to keep up with the Komets. I honestly think I could like the IHL if they fixed these problems. Make the playing field more level, get each team independently owned, and start reffing games like the other leagues and most of my complaints would go away.

My comment about the Komets' 1st half…It just seems like their effort has been a lot better the last few times I've seen them. It seems like they've gone on a roll at this time in past seasons, too.

[pioneer98]

BTW, I seem to remember an expansion team that was leading the UHL when it folded...Columbus Stars. Just because Quad City has been troubled with expansion doesn't mean it's guranteed.

Dayton has struggled, too. Bloomington struggled for a few years, too, and are really only ahead of the expansion teams and Flint this year.

[Primis]

Bloomington could substitute for FtW if they and QC were to jump, but if they are in as much trouble as Primis says then I think it'd be too risky for the E and QC.

The best case scenario would be all three jumping at the same time. Primis do you think a jump to the E (if QC and FtW jump first) would help make Bloomington profitable again?


Bloomington's problems are two-fold.

#1, a Franke has ownership in the team. Not a rumor, but publicly confirmed. That's not a good omen to the team surviving a move to a different league, because it's likely Stephen Franke (and his money) would not stay on board for a jump because the opportunity for profit becomes much slimmer. I don't know what that'd do to the financial situation, but remove some money from the team and add on extra expenses to boot.... and it's not a winning combination of events.

Secondly, last I knew Bloomington's arena is not turning a regular profit, and has its owners (the city) in a big hole to the point where it's ruining their... credit rating, or something akin to that? It got bad enough that the city kicked around ideas publicly in the paper about options (sell the arena, or if all else fails close it down).

Now if the arena sold, there'd be a matter of what new ownership would do to keep the PT as a tenant, and how expensive rent would be. More hoops to jump through. It could be done and solved if the right group bought the arena and was willing to work with the PT on a reasonable rent.

If the arena closed though, Bloomy would flat out have now home to play in and have to basically fold or somehow by some miracle find a new venue to play in on least-second notice (and that venue would not be anywhere near Bloomington).

Attendance-wise I think they're fine. There's just other issues that are conspiring against them making an easy move in the future.


Since this is the rumors section...

Fort Wayne
Quad City
Bloomington
Dayton
Flint -> Springfield, IL
Port Huron -> Ann Arbor
Chicago
Evansville

I don't see Ann Arbor, Steve. That sounds like a bad plan all around. For one main thing, there is no venue for a team to play in.

The Cube, where the US NTDP plays at, seats 1,000 and won't have enough open dates. Veteran's Memorial Arena seats only 2,000. Neither of those are capacities appropriate for an IHL team, you can't be profitable in those circumstances. And good luck trying to get them to play in Yost... Yost does seat 6,600, but I doubt the Univ. would want to work with them on it.

To give some perspective on that, the Wings Stadium Annex seats 1,300. Would anyone say that the Wings Stadium Annex is an appropriate home for an IHL team? Those are AAHL rink capacities, not IHL. Kinney'd be better off staying in Port Huron at that rate.

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Asy08KxUb901dE1wNWJJRzI2Sm1JNkQ1WXVwZ1pDd UE&hl=en

That's my Google Docs list of Michigan-based ice arenas/rinks that I know of. As you can see, there simply aren't a lot of options.

Yack Arena in Wyandotte on that list seats over 3,000, but only has parking for 100 vehicles, which would be a MAJOR hurdle. All the rest of any size are basically spoken for already.

[Hans]

If the IHL goes to 8 teams, the talent will be diluted to a pathetic level.
That's not a statement that's defensible. You're making the assumption that there's a pool of "IHL players" that is going to be diluted, and that's just not the case. As much as people chest-thump and get into genitalia-size
contests about "MY LEAGUE IS BETTER THAN YOURS!", the honest facts of the case are that IN GENERAL, the three mid-minors leagues (CHL, IHL, and ECHL) are drawing from the same talent pool -- which, as FWKRTJ points out, is being utilized by MANY fewer teams now than it was a mere decade ago.

As many cogent issues that there ARE with the IHL, this one's just a red herring.

[OlJackDaniels]

Bloomington's problems are two-fold.
Secondly, last I knew Bloomington's arena is not turning a regular profit, and has its owners (the city) in a big hole to the point where it's ruining their... credit rating, or something akin to that? It got bad enough that the city kicked around ideas publicly in the paper about options (sell the arena, or if all else fails close it down).

Now if the arena sold, there'd be a matter of what new ownership would do to keep the PT as a tenant, and how expensive rent would be. More hoops to jump through. It could be done and solved if the right group bought the arena and was willing to work with the PT on a reasonable rent.

If the arena closed though, Bloomy would flat out have now home to play in and have to basically fold or somehow by some miracle find a new venue to play in on least-second notice (and that venue would not be anywhere near Bloomington).


Most arenas (without a major league team) lose money. Closing it down would be an impossibility, financially speaking. Cities use arenas to attract other development, and new businesses with the quality of life argument. Selling it dirt cheap is the best option, but with one major drawback... who will be the owner and will they turn out to be a giant pain in the rear. The USHL ownership group considered Bloomington before Muskegon, but couldn't make it work with two teams sharing an arena.

The Sears Center is also losing wads of cash, they need a consistent tenant hence my belief that the Hounds could get a good deal on rent. I still can't believe no one can make Richmond work financially, not the ECHL, SPHL or UHL, they drew plenty of fans when in the UHL and still folded. Not sure what kind of expenses they had with their arena though.

A pro team wouldn't work in Ann Arbor. They are to snooty for blue collar hockey, which is primarily what the IHL is.

[Primis]

That's not a statement that's defensible. You're making the assumption that there's a pool of "IHL players" that is going to be diluted, and that's just not the case. As much as people chest-thump and get into genitalia-size
contests about "MY LEAGUE IS BETTER THAN YOURS!", the honest facts of the case are that IN GENERAL, the three mid-minors leagues (CHL, IHL, and ECHL) are drawing from the same talent pool -- which, as FWKRTJ points out, is being utilized by MANY fewer teams now than it was a mere decade ago.

As many cogent issues that there ARE with the IHL, this one's just a red herring.

While I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point of hoisting one league above another, I'm not so sure about the "AA" talent pool example.

10 years ago some guys in "AA" now would have been in "AAA", because the IHL and AHL both still existed as "AAA" entities. It took the original IHL dying to finally give "AA" the pool of players it needed to succeed if we're being honest here, and even then it took some years to retool the "AA" level to get to where it is now.

Now 10 years later here we sit with too many "AA" teams this time, and it needs retooling so that the "A" level can properly grow and retool, and the "AA" can then stabilize instead of cannibalize.

With that in mind I don't think it's unfair to say the IHL absolutely has players that should be in "A". As do the CHL and ECHL. The talent pool all around is still watered down, it's just the fault of a different level this time. About 10 years ago I saw an ECHL game in Charlotte and it was AWFUL. I thought NCAA collegiate hockey was far better and more-interesting to watch, at the time. Now years later, it's comparing apples and oranges to compare the two, because the "AA" level improved when the "AAA" level stopped saturizing the market and dilluting the talent pool.

It's also a bit misleading to say the IHL is pulling from the exact same pool -- they aren't, and they're not getting to play the exact same game. The fact that they're not union means they can't get all the exact same players the other two can. They're at a notable disadvantage from the get-go. And as has been discussed before, even the SPHL, which is comfortable with the "A" tag, has an extra advantage of being able to tell players "come play in a warm weather climate".

One other note to add to this -- Europe plays into this in ways it never did 10 years ago as well. Euro leagues are very much an option for North Americans now, and they weren't so much 10 years ago.

I think some people really aren't looking at this the right way, on a big enough picture or scale. When you do look on a bigger picture, the system still looks very broken, and is unbalanced and dilluted at certain levels...

[SteveMacD]

I don't see Ann Arbor, Steve.

I never said the moves would actually happen, or that they were good ideas. However, I was told by somebody on the grapevine at the time that those were in fact the intentions. His sources may not have been reliable. And, remember, it's the IHL we're talking about. When did something being a bad idea ever stop them?

[pioneer98]

That's not a statement that's defensible. You're making the assumption that there's a pool of "IHL players" that is going to be diluted, and that's just not the case. As much as people chest-thump and get into genitalia-size
contests about "MY LEAGUE IS BETTER THAN YOURS!", the honest facts of the case are that IN GENERAL, the three mid-minors leagues (CHL, IHL, and ECHL) are drawing from the same talent pool -- which, as FWKRTJ points out, is being utilized by MANY fewer teams now than it was a mere decade ago.

As many cogent issues that there ARE with the IHL, this one's just a red herring.

When it comes to rookies, the IHL does not draw from the same pool of players as the CHL or ECHL. All of the drafted rookies go into the CHL or ECHL. Only once you get past the drafted rookies does the IHL draw from the same pool. This makes a big difference in talent level since each league requires teams to carry a certain number of rookies. So, yes, adding two more teams will dilute the talent, of the rookie pool at least.

Also, Muskegon probably paid a high price to keep those vets in the IHL. I just don't see an outfit like Evansville coming in and being able to spend the cash to attract those kind of vets (I have no faith in the salary cap). Don't get me wrong, an expansion team might be able to bring in some good players, but odds are they will not be the caliber of a Robin Bouchard or Todd Robinson. We're talking about trying to replace a few of the best players in the league.